Nvidia rakes in record revenue.

[Squink]

I take it you practice what you preach?

Yes, absolutely. I have (short) a list of companies I won't ever deal with again. If a company provides me with poor service I will ALWAYS complain if I feel it leaves me out of pocket and will generally put in the effort to get the best value for money in the products I buy or use. Competition can be a wonderful thing.

The only difference with GPUs is the singular lack of competition.

 

[eddyr]

So you posted because...?

Since you asked, basically I read the thread and sighed.

If I must spell it out, because its a subtle but not so subtle comment on the same predictable tedious discussions where even attempts at neutrality come tinged with colour and involve the same team slanted rehashed old arguments. It would be OK is there were at least a little nuanced and balanced analyses (regardless of bias) in the topics briefly covered but there rarely is.

You can read a dozens of other threads, all effectively the same. Like watching the same film over and over and over.

 

[Gregster]

Yes, absolutely. I have (short) a list of companies I won't ever deal with again. If a company provides me with poor service I will ALWAYS complain if I feel it leaves me out of pocket and will generally put in the effort to get the best value for money in the products I buy or use. Competition can be a wonderful thing.

The only difference with GPUs is the singular lack of competition.

I guess you cycle everywhere and never use public transport or a car (assuming you are old enough to drive) and you always buy from your local butchers and convenience store?

 

[Squink]

I don't get wrapped up in pettiness

 

[ubersonic]

Yes, absolutely. I have (short) a list of companies I won't ever deal with again. If a company provides me with poor service I will ALWAYS complain if I feel it leaves me out of pocket and will generally put in the effort to get the best value for money in the products I buy or use. Competition can be a wonderful thing.

The only difference with GPUs is the singular lack of competition.

The comical thing is, the reason the is a lack of GPU competition is because of people with lists like yours abandoning 3DFX, Matrox, PowerVR, S4, etc.

 

[Squink]

You can read a dozens of other threads, all effectively the same. Like watching the same film over and over and over.

Yes, you need to dip in and out and not get affected by it.

 

[Squink]

The comical thing is, the reason the is a lack of GPU competition is because of people with lists like yours abandoning 3DFX, Matrox, PowerVR, S4, etc.

No one has ever said capitalism is perfect. Or at least if they did, they are an idiot.

 

[setter]

If we were in a communist society, we'd all be using the same low end cards. Well except the leaders, they'd get all the shiny new cards to themselves.

 

[Gregster]

If we were in a communist society, we'd all be using the same low end cards. Well except the leaders, they'd get all the shiny new cards to themselves.

We have a guy at work who always preaches about how we shouldn't buy from Tesco because they are killing off farmers etc and then I asked where he got that Tesco bag he was carrying to work and fair play to him, he put his hands up and said 'guilty as charged'.

All banter but if someone genuinely stands by morals and preaches that we shouldn't buy from such and such because of such and such, at least make sure that the company you do buy from is squeaky clean or it could be a touch embarrasing (can't be bothered to spell check)

 

[eddyr]

Yes, you need to dip in and out and not get affected by it.

Wasn't even that affected!Just each itch as you read adds up that you want to respond. Had meant to soften the above mental vomit with pokey tongue face.

We have a guy at work who always preaches about how we shouldn't buy from Tesco because they are killing off farmers etc and then I asked where he got that Tesco bag he was carrying to work and fair play to him, he put his hands up and said 'guilty as charged'.

All banter but if someone genuinely stands by morals and preaches that we shouldn't buy from such and such because of such and such, at least make sure that the company you do buy from is squeaky clean or it could be a touch embarrasing (can't be bothered to spell check)

It's a good way to go about but sadly it is simpler with some purchases than others. Sometimes it can be hard to avoid due to the pervasiveness of some companies that you really have to go out of your way.

OT. Just reminded me that recently there was a large 4 pack of tuna in a supermarket selling for £2.80, which I bought. Felt guilty buying it. Value for money wise it's hard to ignore but I can't help but consider the overfishing of declining fish stocks and the oversupply that likely led to that pricing.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

AMD revenue is actually higher than nvidia, just nvidia make a profit off less cash coming in. So what you just said about AMD being admirable for working with less cash than nvidia is nonsense

You think that high revenue makes a difference if your margins are lower?

What happens to AMDs already lower margins if they invest more into RnD like people have suggested?

What will the already wavering share holders think when they see margins shrink further?

Not surprising AMD have higher revenue since they target the GPU market as well as the CPU market but i don't know how you can say that me thinking AMD are admirable is nonsense, as it is just an opinion, you disagreeing with it doesn't make me think they are any less admirable.

Fact of the matter is, AMD just are not capable of making the margins that Nvidia or intel make and its the margins that count to investors both internally for those deciding the RnD budget and externally for the share holders.

Easy thing to say they should make less to reduce waste... in hindsight

 

[eddyr]

Easy thing to say they should make less to reduce waste... in hindsight

Which is what they appear to be doing anyway pursuing semi-custom contracts (portion of R&D only spent with a guaranteed customer at the end), not manufacturing steamroller for AM3 etc. Rather than spend a lot on speculative R&D and upfront manufacture costs (some contractually obliged), produce a whole range of products, plop them on the market and nothing. Then have to write off stock.

And as if 'outsourcing to reduce fixed costs and improve margins, because Intel' (paraphrasing) actually means anything. Some technically factual statements just strung together, with no effort to relate to the real world scenario.

 

[Gregster]

It's a good way to go about but sadly it is simpler with some purchases than others. Sometimes it can be hard to avoid due to the pervasiveness of some companies that you really have to go out of your way.

OT. Just reminded me that recently there was a large 4 pack of tuna in a supermarket selling for £2.80, which I bought. Felt guilty buying it. Value for money wise it's hard to ignore but I can't help but consider the overfishing of declining fish stocks and the oversupply that likely led to that pricing.

I have a very good friend who is a fisherman and he is ruled by what he can and can't catch by quota's and he tells me that the fishing is so good at present but he has to turf it out as he would be heavily fined if he goes over his quota for each month and he can barely afford to make a living. I don't know the extent of fish depletion but seems very harsh to me.

Sorry, OT.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

And as if 'outsourcing to reduce fixed costs and improve margins, because Intel' (paraphrasing) actually means anything. Some technically factual statements just strung together, with no effort to relate to the real world scenario.

+1

 

[andybird123]

You think that high revenue makes a difference if your margins are lower?

What happens to AMDs already lower margins if they invest more into RnD like people have suggested?

What will the already wavering share holders think when they see margins shrink further?

Not surprising AMD have higher revenue since they target the GPU market as well as the CPU market but i don't know how you can say that me thinking AMD are admirable is nonsense, as it is just an opinion, you disagreeing with it doesn't make me think they are any less admirable.

Fact of the matter is, AMD just are not capable of making the margins that Nvidia or intel make and its the margins that count to investors both internally for those deciding the RnD budget and externally for the share holders.

Easy thing to say they should make less to reduce waste... in hindsight

You said that nvidia had more income than AMD. That is factually incorrect and so were the conclusions you came to because of that error.

Nvidia also target CPU's with integrated GPU's, just not PC desktop ones. AMD spreading themselves too thin and not spending enough on R&D is exactly why their products are not competitive and they can't get their margins up.

I didn't say they should make less, I said they DO make less.

R&D does not affect *gross* margins, which is what you report on end of year results, so that wouldn't have any affect on what shareholders see as gross margin

eddyr; nvidia outsource as much as AMD do, my point was that intel have massive massive fixed costs as they run their own semiconductor plants, if intel's revenue drops then their costs per unit rise dramatically... AMD and Nvidia don't have that problem, if they are selling less product they don't manufacture as much and that cost goes away with it, it is much easier to cost something out and make a profit per unit when you have far less fixed costs

people are defending AMD on the basis that they sell less so cut them some slack, oh isn't their life difficult... no, no it isn't, any company management worth their salt will have a good handle on what stock they need to position, what that costs them and what they need to sell at to make a profit... AMD's end of year results show that their management did not have a good handle on costs or margins

 

[eddyr]

eddyr; nvidia outsource as much as AMD do, my point was that intel have massive massive fixed costs as they run their own semiconductor plants, if intel's revenue drops then their costs per unit rise dramatically... AMD and Nvidia don't have that problem, if they are selling less product they don't manufacture as much and that cost goes away with it, it is much easier to cost something out and make a profit per unit when you have far less fixed costs

people are defending AMD on the basis that they sell less so cut them some slack, oh isn't their life difficult... no, no it isn't, any company management worth their salt will have a good handle on what stock they need to position, what that costs them and what they need to sell at to make a profit... AMD's end of year results show that their management did not have a good handle on costs or margins

If you product isn't competitive and doesn't sell, it's going to throw off those calculations.

Re intel. The fixed cost to setting up and running their fabs are immense, but it is also hard to quantify monetarily the benefit of being vertically integrated from the outside, which I expect to be significant. Problem resolution, Process and arch design targets and tolerances, affecting time to market and product quality. Their manufacturing advantage and control (they can make small dies which outperform the competition) is a good part of the key to their high margins. While AMD don't have that fixed cost (although the commitment to GF to purchase is a bit of a thorn - constant news about renegotiation/settlement regarding this) they lose out on the benefits and ultimately being nearer the leading edge.
So vs intel example with fab plants, costing something out and pursuing the same markets results in a loss of competitiveness which feeds back into sales volume and revenue reducing margin regardless. (edit). That's taking the liberty with the assumption they were more competitive while with the fab cost. Kinda going on a tangent here but I what I'm saying is they are different business models and comparisons aren't straight forward. I see intel as a semiconductor manufacturer first and designer second tbh.


Nvidia are a more focused business then AMD for sure (product wise), AMD has some baggage, and they are between a cpl of rocks and hard places but they are still in the process of re-orienting. One thing to note about R&D it can take a lot more to stay just a little ahead (not just with regards technologies but also production and release - thank the professional market for those big dies arriving when they did). Anyway I would rather wait and see what happens, than speculate too definitively with limited real info.


edit: meant margin not unit margin.

 

[andybird123]

Thing is, yes intel typically beat AMD to a new process, but Amd usually do over nvidia, yet nvidia's products still sell consistently better than Amd, so it isnt just about what process you are on or how soon you get there.