I'm a bit ignorant of the region, but most of the Iranians I've met are Zoroastrian academics, are you saying that the religion is disliked in Iran, and that its values are more accepted in Pakistan? I don't follow.
Netanyahu: Iran a threat to the world.
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I'm a bit ignorant of the region, but most of the Iranians I've met are Zoroastrian academics, are you saying that the religion is disliked in Iran, and that its values are more accepted in Pakistan? I don't follow.
It is the same position now as before.
You carried on the argument in an open forum.
Did he state that? I don't think he did.
I agree with Xordium insofar that the Iran-Pak relationship is one of convenience not friendship, that sectarianism and traditional regional hatreds mar the border, that their cooperation is largely fuelled by mutual benefit due to mutual threats, not due to a mutual identity.
I disagreed with him on the idea that Pakistan are more of a threat to Iran, or rather the stability of the region than Saudi is, as I feel the natural enemy of Iran is Saudi Arabia, and this also influences Pakistani relations with Iran, as it is a close ally wit Saudi, it needs to keep Iran close as not to threaten that fragile peace between Iran and Saudi.
I have no idea now what you are talking about.
The Zogby poll was more representative for the purposes of the debate due to the inclusion of demographics in its results and methodology. It's why I used it. You ignored that, as you have done from the beginning, preferring to focus in intergovernmental relations rather than the demographic relations which Xordium was referencing.
And here we go again, so now I'm a liar, how long before I'm a murdering baby killer like you've accused me of before? As I said, it was a press release...
You will see the same or similar wording, particularly to the second quote across a range of press outlets as that is what a press release is.
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Soldato
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Not really, your arguing semantics now.
One you withdrew from.
here you go
No one said anything about mutual identity, the border skirmishes are irrelevant as are by separatist groups on both sides, both sides fought together in the 80s to quell unrest. The polls are asking the people, not the governments.
Oh Xordiam has a dislike of Pakistanis in general.
Its been question for reliability, i'm sorry that's not my fault. It goes against numerous other polls. has been challenged in the region, wildly differs from its earlier polls. these are not my fault. PEW had twice the number of people polled in one survey, gallup also reached the same conclusion. Why look at the methodology if the poll itself is seen as flawed, I appreciate what you are saying when it breaks things down in to demographics but surely a respected organisation as pew with a larger sample point didn't simply ask shias in Pakistan (which would be quite hard to do).
Show me, or perhaps these press outlets were referencing the washington post. Show me where pew stated that. Max Fisher said what you claimed was PEW
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Xordium was very subtle in what he said I do think he whole heartedly meant it, hence my reply..
Ignore him crater, don't let Persian pansies bother you go find some Persian pastry instead very delicate and exquisite.
haha I'm not bothered, I honestly thought it was a odd statement. I genuinely like Iranians as a whole, I have a few Iranian friends too hence why I brought it up and knowing Xordiams history.
Now Cas wont let go of my trouser leg, like a little terrier !
I'm stating an answer to your accusation. If it is semantics then that lies with you.
As did you, as you agreed to disagree...it takes two to do so...yet you continued unabated.
He said a lot of Persians, and he supported that with evidence. He didn't say he agreed with it or that it was a personally held bias.
The only poll to differentiate according to demographic, which is very important to the context here, is the AAI one. Which is why I supplied it.
Like you hate British servicemen and Indians and god knows who else you berate in your opinions from time to time.
I'm not sure he does hate Pakistanis though, just like you probably don't hate all Indians, soldiers etc...
The sample size for the pew poll in terms of Pakistan and Iran was smaller than the Zogby one by a significant margin...it also did not take a demographic approach to selection or a regional one...for the terms of this debate both of which are extremely important, which is why the Zogby poll is more representative for the context in which this debate resides.
It's a press release, it's repeated verbatim or paraphrased across a range of publications. In any case, it is true whoever said it. As I've shown using a broad range of literature, data, historical documentation and academic opinion, the polls are not always indicative of the demographic attitudes in cross border region with a traditional enmity within those population groups. The same kind of example can be seen in Pakistan afghan relations, or Tajik/afghan/Pakistan relations...like has been mentioned it isn't as black and white as polls suggest, whichever one you look at.
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Are you saying Xordium is prejudiced against Pakistanis? Hence his opinion is reflected in that prejudice?
I'm just trying to illustrate that regional (especially ones where there is little local recognition of national borders) enmities are rarely reflected in how central government's might relate with each other. Crikey, Pakistan is one big boiling pot, it's government has little control over large parts of its country and tribal and sectarian majorities often hod sway...this is what I am saying, and that it can and does boil over into cross border skirmishes which in turn can lead to war...and this is actually happening right now on the Iran-Pakistan border...
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Xordium was very subtle in what he said I do think he whole heartedly meant it, hence my reply..
Ignore him crater, don't let Persian pansies bother you go find some Persian pastry instead very delicate and exquisite.
well it seems he's just pointed out that some Persians think Pakistanis are dirty/illiterate* he didn't say he agreed with that, but you seemingly think Persians are 'pansies' though appreciate their women as delicate and exquisite (and presumably less hairy too j/k)
*(to be fair a 60% literacy rate for Pakistan vs 82% (increasing to 97% amongst under 24s) for Iran doesn't help Pakistan there)
The few I've encountered seem pleasant enough one was a bit cocky, could tell he thought he was too good for everyone.
Better then Arabs though, can't stand them and the worst thing is there attitude to religion is catching on like a plague. There fundamentalist views which to them seem as clear as the sky is blue. It's like talking to a wall, too much religious zealotry with Pakistanis too now.
Hello there, welcome to the party. I get straight to the point, he likes to beat around the brush a bit. Cultural difference again or is it character?
Ours are better not too light or dark and none of that nasty nose.
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What accusation, ive made no accusations. A moment ago you were arguing is some nobel peace prize winner was muslim or not, not something I claimed and missed the point. that's semantics
Not with you
Hence why I said I suspected it on previous form, so has B&W above. Perhaps he should be replying instead of you, hence why I replied to him and have pointed out on numerous occasions the oddity of you replying. What evidence, there was only one source in his reply from Quaro which I demonstrated it argued against his point!
As I said it would be very odd if pew simply asked shias in Pakistan, don't you think. The poll you quoted has been challenged and by numerous people, and a separate poll pretty much proves it.
Irrelevant to the topic, as my opinion aren't reflected on the subject matter in this thread, his are.
Well he has claimed he would like immigration to be halted from Pakistan and how they are a burden on the NHS etc He stated a lot of Iranians / Persians think of Pakistanis as dirty, illiterate zealots. Not only is that not true, its actually quite offensive towards Iranians, do you share this position?
Well PEW had double the amount of people polled in Lebanon which I assume would reflect in Pakistan, if you can show otherwise fair enough, but still that doent change the fact the Zogby poll has been questioned on its reliability. that's a fact, not me. not only that a second poll by another respected pollster backs up the PEW poll, the evidence is to huge to ignore.
Show me where, you cant because mark a writer for the Washington post said those things. if not show me. And B) your also wrong because they polled the general public, some polls which are consistent are prior to the gas pipeline too. the genral public don't answers polls on whether they can get gas / power from iran when choosing if they see iran as favourable or unfavourable.
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Perhaps, that's why I brought it up with him. Claiming he thinks Iranians see Pakistani as dirty and zealots doesn't really help. (more like that's his opinion / prejudice )
I'm aware, my only point is I don't think Pakistan and Iran are traditional foes or are its people. Border skirmishes are nothing to do with that and simply because of terrorist activity from separatists from both sides of the border. If anything Iran's traditional foes are arabs, rather than Pakistan or its people.
I only know a half Pakistani girl, though she is very cute, albeit she is a bit lighter than average.
Though on the other hand I always thought Persian women generally had a reputation for being very attractive, unfortunately I don't know any Persian girls. Didn't realise they had bad noses?
Still I think a discussion of the merits of women from each country is much better than one about how much evidence we can find of mutual hatred or lack of hatred between the two.
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You accused me of changing position...I said my position remains the same...that's not semantics.
Pointing out that in the respondents country (as the main issue under discussion) doesn't recognise the religion of the person you used in part of your argument is relevant, it's not semantics either...it's an observation of truth.
It's an open forum...we agreed to disagree within that context.
I'm sure he will, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree if you think Xordium is a bigot...opinionated yes, a bigot absolutely not.
It doesn't state it's demographic, so it is likely, due to the small sample size to be largely centralised in the urban areas...whereas the Zogby poll gives a strictly adhered and verifiable demographic methodology which includes the regions under discussion...and the poll was challenged mainly on its position relating to Lebanon and supported in other areas..it isn't like the pew poll, as that is a global attitude survey which then extrapolates the data to give broader based results indicative of the global picture...the Arab Attitudes survey is much more specialised and its weighted same,e size is much larger and demographically weighted.
But you have a predominantly Pro muslim, pro Pakistani outlook...how is that not reflected in the subject matter but the accusations of bigotry you level at Xordium are?
What position?
Pew polled 2000 people....Zogby polled between 1200 and 4000 people over a series of polls over a six year period, total was in the region of 400,000 people polled in 20 countries over a 6 year period...the poll is just a small part of the overall Examination of attitudes.
I don't have access to pew press releases, I'm not a journalist...however when you read the same or similar release across a range of publications it is indicative of a press release and as I said, it matters not as it illustrates the point whoever said it.
I'm not wrong either, you just disagree, as you have no information on the demographics of the poll, which is very important as we are discussing a specific demography of the region you cannot simply say your poll supersedes every book, academic paper and academic opinion I have presented.
Im not even convinced you understand the position I'm stating, as you seem to be totally fixed on the relationship of the government's themselves....and refuse to recognise demographic data when it's presented.
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I do not think he claimed that as his personal opinion, but a common opinion in the region.
Border disputes have everything to so with it, as we are discussing the risk of those disputes escalating into something more...that was the entire point of this portion of the debate. The traditional foes being those who are inciting the fighting and based on ancient sectarian and tribal rivalries. Hence why the demographics are so important.
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It wasn't a point made by me if he was Muslim or not according to Pakistan, it wasn't the point of the quote from the redditor, rather a Iranian opinion on Pakistan who mentioned it in his reply. Similar to the evidence used by Xordiam, Quora. The fact he stated him as Muslim is 100% is irrelevant to me quoting his general view on Pakistan. Semantics in a nutshell
Indeed and I moved past you to the person my query was aimed at initially.
Perhaps, hence why I was questioning HIM, his comments on Pakistani being seen as dirty and zealets didn't do him any favours.
You think its likely a poll in Pakistan where a minority is Shia only asked Shias, I think you're clutching here. And you think a 2nd poll confirming those results also made this impossible mistake. yet ignore the fact the your poll has been mared in controversy being openly challenged and differing from its own results and being outdated by years? Please. If it was larger please supply evidence, the PEW one has been stated it was twice the size as the Zogby in Lebanon on the same subject, the difference is sample size isn't coincidence in lebaon but likely it was a overall more representative poll.
Irrelevant again and arguing semantics again, the subject is not about my alleged views hence my views are irrelavent and play no part in the initial discussion. Being pro Pakistan doesn't effect challenging a position supplied by someone else, as the position itself doesn't effect pro / against Pakistan.
The same one now ive asked atlest twice. Do you agree iranians think of Pakistanis dirty and zealots or many of them?
Well what matters here is the people polled in Pakistan, PEW also polled hundreds of thousands across many countries. So a low figure of 1200 vs 2000 is what you are saying, not sourced by the way... That also doesn't take into account the gullop poll which adds to the PEW numbers and the fact PEW have been conducting these pools on a yearly basis with results consistent with the former. Infact lets take PEW numbers just for 2012/13/14 and its significantly larger than Zogby over a 6 year period in fact even if we go with the higher number of 4000. That's not even taking into account the issues with Zogbys poll which are not even in line with its earlier poll, or the fact its been challenged on it reliability.
its indicative of using Washington post as a source, the fact you stated outright authoritively was wrong as you have pretty much changed that stance and moved to a indicative. this practice is seen in prints which usually come under a larger collective parent company or as I said simply referencing another paper. In fact the way its written is opinionated itself and very unlikely and unprofessional for pew to comment like this when it deals with facts and statistics. Which all of the above im pretty sure you are well aware of.
The only papers and books you have presented have by in large been irrelevant and you haven't even quoted or sourced from them probably because you haven't even read them or have access to them yourself even after being asked on numerous occasions. The only evidence you have presented is a poll that's been questioned on its reliability, a proven smaller sample size, out of date, is wildly different to its own former poll and contradicts a poll that is being used by the majority of news outlets. A poll which has been verified by another poll done in the same year.
Well when someone disagrees with you its not uncommon for you to claim the other party doesn't understand.... I've presented you with data on every level from governmental, to the people themselves. Lets be clear here you are the one at the start of the discussion attempted to use the "trust me mate" "i know a guy" and to "ignore the information available online" where as I have been the opposite evidence based.
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It's odd coming from someone who isn't very reflective of the region, such claims are rather opinionated rather than ones grounded in truth. It would in fact reflect poorly on Iranians and they deserve better than being tarred with such a brush.
No the debate was that Iran and Pakistan are traditional enemies / historical foes. Recent border skirmishes, which iran itself acknowledges isn't done by Pakistan itself, doesn't fall into that category when you also take into fact the issue is with separatists groups in Baluchistan that effects both countries and where both countries teamed together to stamp out rebellion in the 80s.
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Now that is it for me for today!! good night
He gave evidence of a common theme though. You just seem to want to tar him with being a bigot.
NO it wasn't, I knew you didn't understand the point...it was about the people, not the governments. And the region has a history of dispute, sectarianism and fighting. The books, references and academic papers I gave you to read all show this...it goes back over a thousand years, vastly pre-dating the counties of Iran or Pakistan..but indicative of ingrained prejudices and hatreds between the peoples of the region over hundreds of years. This is what Xordium was talking about when he said that the greatest threat with regard to Iran is the border with Pakistan...and the only actual fighting going on is on that border so I cannot see how that isn't actually indicative of what he said...and while both countries do attempt to combat the problems, they also surreptitiously support them...again this is indicative of the superficial nature of the relationship.