Raped 10 year old forced to give birth

Orionaut · 12 May 2015 at 09:14

Xordium said:
Except that body is half her body,

Which half exactly?

Also, out of curiosity, when is abortion no longer allowed in your opinion? What exact time and date after conception?

The only logical point to consider a new life to exist is conception. The argument here is simply about under what circumstances it is considered acceptable to kill a baby.

Arguments about "dependence", "Its just a ball of cells", "The nervous system has not yet developed" and so on are simply sophistry used to deflect the argument away from this fundamental issue.

A good starting point would be to start from the proposition that the only circumstances where it would be considered acceptable to kill (Or allow to die) a baby six months before it is born are those where it would be equally acceptable to kill (Or allow to die) a baby six months after it is born. and see where the discussion takes you.

For my own part, while I do not agree to abortion for convenience there are other circumstances where I would consider abortion/"Liverpool care pathway"/etc entirely acceptable. (And would be happy to see it applied in circumstances where it currently doesn't)

Terminal_Boy · 12 May 2015 at 09:21

OhEsEcks said:
LOL @ spudbynight talking about "rationality". You can't be very good at rationality when you're defending and arguing for the fact a ten year old rape victim can't or shouldn't have an abortion because your sky fairy condemns it. Get a grip you loon.

Harsh, but fair.

TwsT · 12 May 2015 at 09:22

I think it's the woman's right to choose to rid what is essentially just a parasite from their body since it is until it's born 100% dependant on the host for life. I don't think it has any rights.

I think Women have a tough decision to make I don't understand the hormones or feelings involved as I am a man.

It's a terribly sad fact that a raped child is less precious than an unborn baby because of the belief structure of a backwards government.

Religion is personal it should have nothing to do with the state and legislation. History has shown us it has no place in politics.

The Geezer · 12 May 2015 at 09:44

TwsT said:
It's a terribly sad fact that a raped child is less precious than an unborn baby because of the belief structure of a backwards government.

I think that is the nub of the problem in this case. A child was raped with no comprehension of the implications other than she must keep an evil secret on behalf of her stepfather.

If the state outlaws contraception it should be mature enough to deal with the consequences not hide behind the church.

ICEx21 · 12 May 2015 at 10:02

spudbynight said:
I have that poster on ignore so won't see his posts. However, I think it is worth pointing out that you have made a logical error. This graphic explains why :

<retarded picture>

You only have him on ignore because he's challenged your belief and you can't think of suitable response without having to resort to insults.

Religion is only a belief and has absolutely no place in politics or medicine and the decision on whether the baby is aborted or not should come from the girl.

The graphic you posted is just a kick in the teeth to any woman that's been violated and forced into pregnancy.

Janesy B · 12 May 2015 at 10:11

spudbynight's opinion might be more valid for 'standard' abortions, but not a 10 year old girl that has been raped. What does religion has to say about rape, is that okay?

RDM · 12 May 2015 at 10:20

Janesy B said:
spudbynight's opinion might be more valid for 'standard' abortions, but not a 10 year old girl that has been raped. What does religion has to say about rape, is that okay?

To be fair his position is actually fairly consistent. The child is not to blame for the circumstances of its birth. It is more consistent than "Abortion is wrong but should be allowed for rape."

Personally I am pro choice, but I accept that it means that otherwise viable lives will be terminated. I feel that the damage done by having open access to abortion is less than it would be with very restricted access to abortion. Morality based on harm done rather than any adherence to a particular creed.

Xordium · 12 May 2015 at 10:40

Orionaut said:
Which half exactly?

Did you not do reproduction at school?!? :confused:

robgmun · 12 May 2015 at 10:52

Tosno said:
As a dinosaur that has no interest in being modern and hip, I am against the murder of babies, especially murdering one what can survive outside the womb.

That's all I have to say on this matter.

I have to agree with you, it's murder, calling it abortion just makes it sound less horrible.

I don't want to force a ban on abortion however, that would be draconian and infringing on peoples rights of choice. I want to see a vast reduction of abortions through education, either to stop abuse or mistakes so that abortion is only carried out for rape victims if they want or if the woman's life is at risk if it goes through pregnancy.

I saw a stat that says that 250,000 abortions takes place yearly, no way all of those are rape victims or health reasons. i gather most of those are just mistakes and we can at least see if we can cut this figure by half by pressing home and education about contraception.

Xordium · 12 May 2015 at 10:57

robgmun said:
I have to agree with you, it's murder, calling it abortion just makes it sound less horrible.

I don't want to force a ban on abortion however, that would be draconian and infringing on peoples rights of choice. I want to see a vast reduction of abortions through education, either to stop abuse or mistakes so that abortion is only carried out for rape victims if they want or if the woman's life is at risk if it goes through pregnancy.

I saw a stat that says that 250,000 abortions takes place yearly, no way all of those are rape victims or health reasons. i gather most of those are just mistakes and we can at least see if we can cut this figure by half.

Murder is by definition "illegal" killing - where this is the killing of a human within the legal framework and therefore does not meet those criteria unless done outside of recognised medical sanction. I do however agree with your views. The solution here lies in the sphere of education rather than punitive actions but use of emotive language hardly helps the debate and especially on such an emotive issue.

Orionaut · 12 May 2015 at 10:57

Xordium said:
Did you not do reproduction at school?!?

Yes I did, I was rather hoping that you were not one of those people who thought that the placenta was part of the Mother!

Xordium · 12 May 2015 at 10:59

Orionaut said:
Yes I did, I was rather hoping that you were not one of those people who thought that the placenta was part of the Mother!

Then you should be well aware the 50% of the genetic material come from the mother. 50% is half the last time I looked ...

(the placenta is formed from the mothers and the child's genetic material not either/or but both - Chorion frondosum and Decidua basalis - might want to retake those reproduction lessons and lose the winky ...)

The Geezer · 12 May 2015 at 11:01

robgmun said:
I saw a stat that says that 250,000 abortions takes place yearly, no way all of those are rape victims or health reasons. i gather most of those are just mistakes and we can at least see if we can cut this figure by half by pressing home and education about contraception.

You figure isn't correct (I'll let it slide), if contraception was allowed it would also reduce the numbers.

robgmun · 12 May 2015 at 11:09

The Geezer said:
You figure isn't correct (I'll let it slide), if contraception was allowed it would also reduce the numbers.

I think you need to clarify, i thought contraception was allowed in the UK, we just need more people to use it!

The Geezer · 12 May 2015 at 11:13

robgmun said:
I think you need to clarify, i thought contraception was allowed in the UK, we just need more people to use it!

Was your figure for England, Wales and Scotland only ?

This topic was focused on abortion in countries where religion plays a major part in law making.

robgmun · 12 May 2015 at 11:16

The Geezer said:
Was your figure for England, Wales and Scotland only ?

This topic was focused on abortion in countries where religion plays a major part in law making.

Ah right, just looked up and the rate for England and wales hovers around 180,000. That massive! And yes i'm talking about the UK

This number is far too high and need to be drastically cut

RDM · 12 May 2015 at 11:18

robgmun said:
This number is far too high and need to be drastically cut

The way to do that is to change the focus on sex education and concentrate on emphasising the main risk of unprotected sex being pregnancy rather than disease. It also means starting younger and having a much more frank discussion about sex, contraception, etc.

The Geezer · 12 May 2015 at 11:21

RDM said:
The way to do that is to change the focus on sex education and concentrate on emphasising the main risk of unprotected sex being pregnancy rather than disease. It also means starting younger and having a much more frank discussion about sex, contraception, etc.

Totally agree, prudish sensibilities have never helped

robgmun · 12 May 2015 at 11:21

RDM said:
The way to do that is to change the focus on sex education and concentrate on emphasising the main risk of unprotected sex being pregnancy rather than disease. It also means starting younger and having a much more frank discussion about sex, contraception, etc.

Yup, completely agree, we're on the same page here. But how young? I believe actual sex education should start 13-14 and anything younger should focus on abuse (as in no one is allowed to touch you down there etc etc)

Xordium · 12 May 2015 at 11:23

I taught my kids (the basic principles rather than real detail) at the age of seven. To be honest by that age you are just putting off the inevitable awkward questions and it's more practical to get the chat done over a period of time before you have to reverse whatever rubbish they have overheard older kids saying in the playground.