Greece Elections
- Thread starter sityeuropa
- Start date
Its a mess. The problem is the Greek government spend 80% of its income on the pensions and civil service but equally gets the majority of its tax revenue from the civil service as well. If they cut the civil service then unemployment would rise massively.
AFter 30 years of total government mis management Im not sure how you can try and change it for the better.
I can see summer riots in Greece this year.
This figure is misleading because (a) it's amplified by the huge collapse in Greek GDP resulting from imposed austerity and (b) it's largely a result of bad demographics rather than overly generous pensions - Greek spending per over-65 is perfectly reasonable by EU standards.
But didn't the Eurozone have a fiscal 'Golden Rule' about structural deficts and Debt to GDP ratios that everyone had to adhere to to make the system work, and when not even Germany could keep to those rules (well before the 2009 crash) they just changed them
At the time I thought if that was what was needed to make it work...and now you've increased it....hmmm
That unfortunately does seem the case
But that's the point, they have made the huge changes asked of them in 2009/10, and the old retirement age argument is no longer valid, it went to 65 in 2010 and is now 67 in 2015 just like everyone else.
Plus the pensions have been slashed to such a degree that over 50% of pensioners are below the defined poverty line and they want further reductions!
Soldato
- Joined
- 16 Nov 2003
- Posts
- 7,004
- Location
- Thessaloniki
default day+1, it looks normal guys i dont see any panic at all. Business as usual for the most part, it is a hassle if anyone needs cash but the vast majority uses web banking as we did before that.
In the contrary, some who have savings and fear deposits haircuts have gone on a spending spree
In the contrary, some who have savings and fear deposits haircuts have gone on a spending spree
But didn't the Eurozone have a fiscal 'Golden Rule' about structural deficts and Debt to GDP ratios that everyone had to adhere to to make the system work, and when not even Germany could keep to those rules (well before the 2009 crash) they just changed them
At the time I thought if that was what was needed to make it work...and now you've increased it....hmmm
That unfortunately does seem the case
But that's the point, they have made the huge changes asked of them in 2009/10, and the old retirement age argument is no longer valid, it went to 65 in 2010 and is now 67 in 2015 just like everyone else.
Plus the pensions have been slashed to such a degree that over 50% of pensioners are below the defined poverty line and they want further reductions!
cutting the base payment i agree is not acceptable but there are many other things they can do to reduce the pnesion cost.
Reduce fruad and paying for dead people.
Remove the early retirement clause for certain professions due to “hazardous working conditions”, meant for sectors such as bomb disposal, yet also covered radio and television presenters (at risk from the bacteria on their microphones), musicians playing wind instruments and hairdressers! I believe all those type of workers can retire on full pension at 40!
When they uplifted the age for pension the put loads of clauses in to pretoct people who were due to retire in the next few years. This resulted in 400,000 people applying for early retirement so they werent affected by the new retirement age. This just massively increased the number of pensioners and the amount of money spent on pensions. 7.91% of pensioners retire between the ages of 26 and 50, 23.64% between 51 and 55, and 43.53% between 56 and 61.
Hence the retirement age is pretty meaningless when 75% of your population have retired before the age of 61!
In 2013 the Greek Finance Minister at the time, Yannis Stournaras, agreed to raise the retirement age by two years to 67.
Despite this, however, Greek men still retire at 63 and women at 59, according to official Greek government data due to sectors allowed to take early retirement.
There are 11 pages of small print exceptions to the main retirement headline in Greek law. It seems you are far more likley to qualify under one of the exceptions rather than the main rules.
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2004
- Posts
- 14,315
- Location
- Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge
The demands are far from unrealistic. Let's just be absolutly clear about what's being proposed.
The Greeks have been living on borrowed money for over a decade and a half. They need to face up to the reality that their life style was, and is now more than ever, unsustainable.
The EU are just forcing them to live up to "hard" choices sooner that they'd like to. And the EU are a convenient scapegoat for internal Greek politics.
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 22 Jul 2014
- Posts
- 3,929
- Location
- Oxon
Meh, I think a Grexit is the best option. It always has been. The Euro should never have existed without a full political union too.
default day+1, it looks normal guys i dont see any panic at all. Business as usual for the most part, it is a hassle if anyone needs cash but the vast majority uses web banking as we did before that.
In the contrary, some who have savings and fear deposits haircuts have gone on a spending spree
why would there be any panic now? The impact of what they did ref: this IMF payment hasn't been felt yet
you're either going to have to agree to some proposals to stay in the eurozone that will gradually squeeze people further and cause people to kick off
or you're going to have a bit of short term drama/turmoil and uncertainty
Soldato
- Joined
- 16 Nov 2003
- Posts
- 7,004
- Location
- Thessaloniki
Hm, i would have preffered you to tell the whole truth rather than collecting bits and pieces of half-lies half-truth and synthesize a false reality.
Not all men retire at 40 nor all women and men at 59 and 63. Those who were retired at 40 were mainly airforce pilots who consist 0.0001% of the actual workforce, those who have mental problems over 89%, and those who desire to receive reduced pensions. I have never met or heard of a person who was retired at 40
The reality is that most men retire over 60 and women over 55.
Dead people who received pensions are a funny minority and those who did are in jail as we speak or have returned the money plus a penalty.
Now, i am not rejecting there was fraud and bad behaviour but blaming the people for the billions of debt accumulated while whispering carelessly when corporations, shipping tycoons, contruction companies, political elite who by the way have their money deposited in the city, were favored by the EU is to say the least hilarious.
See, we can talk endlessly on whow to blame but note this, debt is a problem in the western world and while i accept responsibility for the misbehavior of my fellow citizens i do not accept that this ponzi scheme-fiat currency-cashing back on debt plutocrats are innocent and above all justified in their never mistaken judgement.
Greeks will be receiving no pension AT ALL, debt will be still there, who are you going to blame for this?
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 13 Apr 2013
- Posts
- 13,845
- Location
- La France
Is this the same outfit who engineered Italy and Spain's entry into the Euro?
Soldato
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2004
- Posts
- 14,315
- Location
- Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge
Grexit is not the easy option many people seem to suggest it is. If it were, the current government wouldn't now be bending over backwards to come to a deal.
Many Greek people will have their savings decimated. Greece is reliant on imports of food, energy and medicine. Inflation will become a serious problem. The poor will struggle to feed themselves, hospitals to treat patients. It will cause serious hardship for a few years, and it will level Greece a blacklisted, isolated state.
Last edited:
But your facts dont fit official Greek government figures.
7.91% retire between 26 and 50 is way more than the 0.0001% of airforce pilots.
But yes some may well be on reduced pension but they are still retired and on a pension.
The official stats show that 75% of current Greek pensioners retired before the age of 61. It may well be the case that they are not on full pension but that doesn't alter the facts that the vast majority retired under 61.
And even under the new rules of 67 men are retiring at 63 and women at 59. Again they might be taking reduced pension but that doesnt alter the age they retired at.
And im not blaming them for the whole mess, just giving an example of the whole financial mess that Greece is in and the whole pension debacle sums it up.
I notice you are not denying that "at risk" job professions. I just checked and its 50 years old not 40 you can retire in these type professions as i mistakely said earlier. That probably accounts for the 7.91% who have retired by the tiem they are 50.
But having hairdressers included as they deal with hazardous chemicals (hair dye) and wind instrument musicians (causes breathing problems in later life) does seem a bit too generous.
But yeah there has been lots of fraud and milking the system by high up Greeks and foreigners.
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 16 Nov 2003
- Posts
- 7,004
- Location
- Thessaloniki
Greebo, the greek crisis started 5 years ago, following the lehman brothers and iceland defaults. There are people who retired before 61 before the crisis, what do you suggest, bring them back to work?
They have retired before this period and those who did during the crisis have legally done so, its done! Now these pensioners lost 40% of their pensions, and those who didnt will have to work 6-10 years more.
Blame Greeks day in day out, i'm telling ya even if nobody received anything the debt will be there.
You are looking at the tree and miss the forest, 1500 airforce pilots and 3000 hairidressers dont default a country, tax evasion on a massive corporate scale and corrupt politicians does and nobody talks about it even in the EU!
Now youre choking a country because it was irresponsible in the past, ok thats fine but you will kill it and then forget your debts. Greece is being used as an example for anyone else, please stop accusing hairdressers as an excuse.
And on top of all this, the EU favors the politicians who actually brought us here!i mean ...i am speechless
I read some comments on the Guardian webpage, i was shocked at those. Greek is the new Jew, gah what ordinary people have done to you anyway? Those with the least responsibility bear the burden and are being told names on top of this.
They have retired before this period and those who did during the crisis have legally done so, its done! Now these pensioners lost 40% of their pensions, and those who didnt will have to work 6-10 years more.
Blame Greeks day in day out, i'm telling ya even if nobody received anything the debt will be there.
You are looking at the tree and miss the forest, 1500 airforce pilots and 3000 hairidressers dont default a country, tax evasion on a massive corporate scale and corrupt politicians does and nobody talks about it even in the EU!
Now youre choking a country because it was irresponsible in the past, ok thats fine but you will kill it and then forget your debts. Greece is being used as an example for anyone else, please stop accusing hairdressers as an excuse.
And on top of all this, the EU favors the politicians who actually brought us here!i mean ...i am speechless
I read some comments on the Guardian webpage, i was shocked at those. Greek is the new Jew, gah what ordinary people have done to you anyway? Those with the least responsibility bear the burden and are being told names on top of this.
well you're free to leave the EU and implement some novel monetary system if you think fiat currency is somehow an issue here
sorry but the Greeks only have themselves to blame (collectively)
self employment and small businesses dominate the private sector - only 5% of your workforce works for companies of over 250 employees - you can't just blame big business or shipping tycoons or politicians... if you've got problems with tax evasion it is also with all those small business owners, ordinary citizens too... it is a much deeper issue than just a few rich people
the electorate was responsible for the current bunch of clowns you've got in government and the electorate is going to be responsible for your next move
...with the full complicity of the Greek government. There's no escaping responsibility, and Greece must own up to her share of it.
Was like giving a credit card with an outrageous limit to a newly turned 18 year old..
UK was brought up on if you can't afford it you can't have it until very recently... credit is a thing we've had a long time learning/ dealing with.
Was always going to be a disaster for the Greeks.
UK was brought up on if you can't afford it you can't have it until very recently... credit is a thing we've had a long time learning/ dealing with.
Was always going to be a disaster for the Greeks.