Gay marriage legalised in the whole US by the supreme court

[Angilion]

Aren't there 2 creation myths in the bibl anyway?

Sort of, but there's a lot of overlap.

It could be explained by two different people writing down the differently mangled story they'd heard passed down by different people. Imagine, for example, two people from different villages in late medieval England writing down a story about King Arthur that had been passed down from generation to generation independently in each village. You'd expect differences between the two versions (and between either version and the original story).

 

[Tummy]

Was watching the West Wing again last night.

It's the best television show ever, major kudos for watching it.

It's one of my favourite moments in the show, it is such a huge, massive shame that Sorkin left after season four. Absolutely sublime television until that point, unsurpassable, however becomes poorer from there after, still very good.

 

[Angilion]

Was watching the West Wing again last night.

A brilliant speech and a point very well made, but it goes further than that.

The Christian bible doesn't say that homosexuality is an abomination.

Some demonstrably incorrect translations say that. But they're just plain wrong. They're mistranslations and misinterpretations. It's not entirely clear what the oldest known version of the Leviticus verse really means, but it's definitely not that. I suspect the translators know that, because the word they translated as 'abomination' in that verse (and the other one that's a copy of it) is used quite often in the OT and they didn't translate it as 'abomination' in other verses. The word 'homosexuality' is a a very dodgy translation too, not least because the verse refers specifically to sex, might apply to sex in general or only in extremely specific circumstances and as far as I know refers only to male people. It's even possible that it's not really anything to do with homosexuality and is really about gender roles. You could translate/interpret the verse to mean "A man shall not act like a woman when having sex with another man. It is spiritually unclean." Breaking gender roles was (and is) considered really serious in places that have very strong gender roles.

 

[Raymond Lin]

A brilliant speech and a point very well made, but it goes further than that.

The Christian bible doesn't say that homosexuality is an abomination.

Some demonstrably incorrect translations say that. But they're just plain wrong. They're mistranslations and misinterpretations. It's not entirely clear what the oldest known version of the Leviticus verse really means, but it's definitely not that. I suspect the translators know that, because the word they translated as 'abomination' in that verse (and the other one that's a copy of it) is used quite often in the OT and they didn't translate it as 'abomination' in other verses. The word 'homosexuality' is a a very dodgy translation too, not least because the verse refers specifically to sex, might apply to sex in general or only in extremely specific circumstances and as far as I know refers only to male people. It's even possible that it's not really anything to do with homosexuality and is really about gender roles. You could translate/interpret the verse to mean "A man shall not act like a woman when having sex with another man. It is spiritually unclean." Breaking gender roles was (and is) considered really serious in places that have very strong gender roles.

To me, the point isn't about the accuracy of the translation, the point isn't even about homosexuality specifically.

To me, the point of that speech is how our culture, once upon a time, if we take the Bible is written at the time where those beliefs were held to be true and accepted, and how we, as society has evolved, as elevated ourselves above our differences and accept each other for who we are. That we leave behind prejudices, little by little, into a better version of our forefathers.

That is the point of that speech, it isn't even about the Bible really, it's about humanity, us, our past and the errors of our ways and how we should continue to leave behind those prejudices.

 

[Tummy]

To me, the point isn't about the accuracy of the translation, the point isn't even about homosexuality specifically.

To me, the point of that speech is how our culture, once upon a time, if we take the Bible is written at the time where those beliefs were held to be true and accepted, and how we, as society has evolved, as elevated ourselves above our differences and accept each other for who we are. That we leave behind prejudices, little by little, into a better version of our forefathers.

That is the point of that speech.

He was not saying the speech was about the accuracy of the translation, he said the speech makes the point well, which it does. He then goes on to say that he thinks there is more to the extract than is talked about in the television show.

I spent ages studying a lot of 'early' texts and doing lots of translations at Uni in English, Angilion is entirely right in that translations are often different and carry different meanings.

 

[Raymond Lin]

He was not saying the speech was about the accuracy of the translation, he said the speech makes the point well, which it does. He then goes on to say that he thinks there is more to the extract than is talked about in the television show.

I spent ages studying a lot of 'early' texts and doing lots of translations at Uni in English, Angilion is entirely right in that translations are often different and carry different meanings.

No doubt, I don't dispute there will be errors or misinterpretations, as it often are when texts are translated, even in modern literature.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

The right to see them in an ER..

That little sentence sums it up and means so much

 

[RoboCod]

I wish everyone would please stop talking sense, you vapid bunch of emotional liberal progressives. Take your blinkers off at once!

 

[koolpc]

I wish everyone would please stop talking sense, you vapid bunch of emotional liberal progressives. Take your blinkers off at once!

Lol, coming from the 'Blinkered Horse' of all time!! lol

 

[koolpc]

A bible on each side of your face. I thought you'd left? We were on topic a for few posts back there.

If you read a few posts back you will see that it wasn't me that brought up 'religion'. It was some atheist!

 

[thep02]

If you're asking why I object to people saying this is an issue of equality, I object because it is not an issue of equality. The 'progressives' frame it as such because the notion of equality is so deeply ingrained in Western culture. Even if there was a rational argument against an issue of equality, you'd be hard pressed to get that past peoples emotional response of 'EQUALITY!!!11'.

I rather imagine that we'll see the same 'equality' argument used to push through legislation legalising other dubious relationships.

I was genuinely asking why a little change in the definition of marriage upset you, tbh I thought we were getting to the nitty gritty but you just avoided the direct question and acted as though I'd asked some wishy washy equality question.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I think that today the world has gone wild. People really dont care about each other that much. Families are splitting up all the time. The world is full of hatred. Yes, this has been happening since the very beginning but i really think that the human race cannot get as low as it is in these times.

The morality of the human race is at an all time low.

Half the hatred comes from people like you who hate others for being themselves! People who take their religions way too seriously. Jesus ****ing Christ.

 

[thep02]

Do you deny the existence of lobbyists and pressure groups?

Ah ha, nope I don't and I agree there does appear to be a concerted effort to make society in general more accepting of gays and gay relationships which upon reflection seems a reasonable thing to hope for iyam.

Louie Spence makes my skin crawl and I stopped watching Tru Blood so let's hope the lobby groups don't give up as there's obviously a fair way to go.

Equality is so obviously a good thing that I think those who are against it should step back and consider their position if they do so honestly the only outcome will be an admission that they were wrong, even David Duke did to some degree.

 

[koolpc]

Half the hatred comes from people like you who hate others for being themselves! People who take their religions way too seriously. Jesus ****ing Christ.

No, i dont preach. You know i love God but would never thrust that view down your throat.

If people accepted God and tried to live in harmony the world would be a better place.

Nothing wrong in being gay. Nothing wrong in loving someone of the same sex. That is fine. But, marriage is sacred and should be reserved for a man and a woman. Ok, i failed at marriage big time. No need to say, i know, Thank God we are back on track, but, it is sacred to a man and a woman.

Gays can have a civil ceremony. But marriage is a special, sacred sacrament reserved for a man and a woman. Marriage has always been about a man and a woman. Marriage and kids. The fulfilment of life, human life!

 

[thep02]

To me, the point isn't about the accuracy of the translation, the point isn't even about homosexuality specifically.

To me, the point of that speech is how our culture, once upon a time, if we take the Bible is written at the time where those beliefs were held to be true and accepted, and how we, as society has evolved, as elevated ourselves above our differences and accept each other for who we are. That we leave behind prejudices, little by little, into a better version of our forefathers.

That is the point of that speech, it isn't even about the Bible really, it's about humanity, us, our past and the errors of our ways and how we should continue to leave behind those prejudices.

You sir, well said.

 

[jetpaczx]

No, i dont preach. You know i love God but would never thrust that view down your throat.

If people accepted God and tried to live in harmony the world would be a better place.

Been there done that, got the T-shirt thankfully I did not get felt up by a Priest

I love the fact you were not going to post again ... But now you are I will have to keep an eye on you

 

[estebanrey]

No, i dont preach. You know i love God but would never thrust that view down your throat.

If people accepted God and tried to live in harmony the world would be a better place.

Nothing wrong in being gay. Nothing wrong in loving someone of the same sex. That is fine. But, marriage is sacred and should be reserved for a man and a woman. Ok, i failed at marriage big time. No need to say, i know, Thank God we are back on track, but, it is sacred to a man and a woman.

Gays can have a civil ceremony. But marriage is a special, sacred sacrament reserved for a man and a woman. Marriage has always been about a man and a woman. Marriage and kids. The fulfilment of life, human life!

Didn't David have 18 wives or something? Polygamy was rife in the Bible so if teaches anything it is that marriage is between a man and several women.

How can you claim your religion teaches heterosexual monogamy when it clearly promotes polygamy?

 

[BigglesPiP]

If people accepted God and tried to live in harmony the world would be a better place.

...

marriage is a special, sacred sacrament reserved for a man and a woman.

</koolpc>

 

[Frightful Boar]

Didn't David have 18 wives or something? Polygamy was rife in the Bible so if teaches anything it is that marriage is between a man and several women.

How can you claim your religion teaches heterosexual monogamy when it clearly promotes polygamy?

King David. He wasn't some atrocious leftie with a persecution complex and an adult nappy, he was an awesome king, warrior and poet. He earned those 18 wives.

 

[Angilion]

You were on about 'this forum'. I was stating this forum is mostly atheist!

'Old Fashioned' views are not silly. Look where the world is now. Look how low society is these days. Its because 'people' have thrown morals out the window. Anything goes these days and the world is suffering for how evil the world really is. The world is full of filth and hate and war and low morals etc etc.

I have an interest in history. Mainly English history, but there's a lot of overlap with other parts of the world.

The more I learn about the past, the more I am glad I live now. Society is hugely better than it was in the past in almost all ways. The world is a great deal less full of filth and hate and war than it was in the past and "low morals" is a very subjective assessment. I regard modern morality as being very much higher than the morality you're thinking of and in any case that largely didn't really exist. It's about as realistic as the courtly romances of medieval times - there's bits of it that were realistic in some ways for some people.