AMD Halts Optimizations for Mantle API

[r7slayer]

Let's jump back a little bit...

DX12 was in development way before Mantle. People like, Nvidia, Qualcomm and AMD all were involved at the beginning.

Devs (Not AMD) push for a low level API. DICE/EA create Mantle in collaboration with AMD (who originally was involved in the DX12 development remember) to produce the API that devs wanted. It was nice of AMD to 'assist' with it already working on the DX12 development previously.

Mantle never makes final release but guises itself in Beta for eternity.

Jump forward a bit, DX12 gets a release date with W10.

Mantle suddenly becomes DX12 lol.

Can you see how silly it is ?

Not really because would Microsoft have worked so hard on DX12 if they didn't have any competition? Nope. Microsoft knew of mantle and what it endeavored so they decided to do what devs asked for and try to emulate and do better what mantle was offering. Quite simple really. And now mantle has evolved into vulcan and so much more! Mantle quite simply has just passed over the mantle really!

 

[TheRealDeal]

Let's jump back a little bit...

DX12 was in development way before Mantle. People like, Nvidia, Qualcomm and AMD all were involved at the beginning.

Devs (Not AMD) push for a low level API. DICE/EA create Mantle in collaboration with AMD (who originally was involved in the DX12 development remember) to produce the API that devs wanted. It was nice of AMD to 'assist' with it already working on the DX12 development previously.

Mantle never makes final release but guises itself in Beta for eternity.

Jump forward a bit, DX12 gets a release date with W10.

Mantle suddenly becomes DX12 lol.

Can you see how silly it is ?

I don't swallow the crap that dx12 in it's current form was always coming. We had heard nothing, not even a whisper that it was in development. Amd show the benefit's that mantle can bring to PC gaming and then all off a sudden Dx12 is coming with Windows 10 and has been in development for many years. I think if Mantle was not in the picture we would still be on dx11 at least into the near future. Funny thing is we now have Vulkan as well.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Comparison of the functions between Vulkan and Mantle:
http://i.imgur.com/aq62YN7.jpg

If these are just names of the functions it could mean they have a similar interface but the code implementing that interface could vary quite a lot. And there are only 75% of those function calls that match, so you'd think they can't be any more than 75% the same if everything else is completely identical. Any tweaking or standardising will lower this further.
Don't suppose there are any comparisons of the code?

You'd have to think there was a fair amount of work for Khronos to do still. As I recall Mantle didn't even work with all of AMD's GPUs, let alone Intel's or Nvidia's. So unless Khronos are going to release it as an AMD only API...
Adding in Nvidia and Intel support will reduce that % more too.
If they also release it on Linux (and Apple) that'll mean more changes.

How different do they have to be before they're not considered just a rename?

And we're saying because the DX12 and Mantle documentation is very very similar that the code must be nearly identical too?
Maybe Microsoft worked with AMD and Nvidia when developing DX12 and it was an AMD guy that had a lot of input into doign the documentation which resulted in it looking closer to the other AMD documention than it might otherwise have done?

 

[Mauller]

You'd have to think there was a fair amount of work for Khronos to do still. As I recall Mantle didn't even work with all of AMD's GPUs, let alone Intel's or Nvidia's.

The reason it only worked on GCN parts was becasue all of the 6000 series and bellow still had Fixed function hardware in their VLIW architecture. GCN was amd's first general compute architecture with full memory control etc.

And its not a matter that it didnt work on intel or nvidia hardware. AMD just didn't get to the point where they released the SDK for others to write drivers for it.

ITs not that the api itself could not be used on different hardware. just that they never released it to other vendors.

 

[LambChop]

We arent denying that DX12 was being talked about / in development.

But the version that it originally was going to be is probably what DX11.3 has become. with the original rendition being a direct continuation from DX11 with drivers still controlling everything.

DX12 in its current state most likely came about due to mantles release. it wouldn't have taken Microsoft long to throw it together considering they already have lower level api's on the consoles. The similarity could even be due to DX12 low level features being taken from Xboxone's api which AMD would have created.

the above could then be the reason for the similarities to DX12 to mantle etc. so by that logic then DX12 is a fork of mantle in a way.

Not really because would Microsoft have worked so hard on DX12 if they didn't have any competition? Nope. Microsoft knew of mantle and what it endeavored so they decided to do what devs asked for and try to emulate and do better what mantle was offering. Quite simple really. And now mantle has evolved into vulcan and so much more! Mantle quite simply has just passed over the mantle really!

I don't swallow the crap that dx12 in it's current form was always coming. We had heard nothing, not even a whisper that it was in development. Amd show the benefit's that mantle can bring to PC gaming and then all off a sudden Dx12 is coming with Windows 10 and has been in development for many years. I think if Mantle was not in the picture we would still be on dx11 at least into the near future. Funny thing is we now have Vulkan as well.

You don't swallow the crap because you don't want to believe it. I understand being an AMD fanboy that you want to hold onto something that is AMD. Forgetting the facts that even if it was true, AMD didnt create it.

To you and the others - Have a think about it. API's take years to develop, do you think Microsoft just knocked together an API a couple of months after Mantle was announced, I dont think so either.

As a side note, why was Forza running on a Titan, if Mantle is DX12 surely they should have used an AMD card ?

 

[Mauller]

You don't swallow the crap because you don't want to believe it. I understand being an AMD fanboy that you want to hold onto something that is AMD.

And the forza thing. No doubt to show that DX12 works with nvidia hardware considering the miss information that mantle only works on AMD GCN Cards.

 

[LambChop]

I don't swallow the crap that dx12 in it's current form was always coming. We had heard nothing, not even a whisper that it was in development. Amd show the benefit's that mantle can bring to PC gaming and then all off a sudden Dx12 is coming with Windows 10 and has been in development for many years. I think if Mantle was not in the picture we would still be on dx11 at least into the near future. Funny thing is we now have Vulkan as well.

Just to add to the h'heard nothing' part.

I'm sure you are aware that Nvidia, AMD, Qualcomm and I think Intel were all working on DX12 with Microsoft.

Here's one of Nvidia's developer papers talking about its low level API fuctions.

http://developer.download.nvidia.com/opengl/tutorials/bindless_graphics.pdf

Note the date ?

 

[Mauller]

That is an openGL extension... nothing to do with DX12.

 

[Stanners]

I don't swallow the crap that dx12 in it's current form was always coming. We had heard nothing, not even a whisper that it was in development. Amd show the benefit's that mantle can bring to PC gaming and then all off a sudden Dx12 is coming with Windows 10 and has been in development for many years. I think if Mantle was not in the picture we would still be on dx11 at least into the near future. Funny thing is we now have Vulkan as well.

I do not believe this either, I think it was always coming due to the Xbox 1 struggling, There have been alternative API's for decades, it is just Microsoft need there own low level one now.

 

[LambChop]

That is an openGL extension... nothing to do with DX12.

Boom! Thank-you.

Mantle couldnt possibly be DX12 then

 

[Mauller]

Boom! Thank-you.

Mantle couldnt possibly be DX12 then

Sense, you are making none.

So because an opengl extension that bypasses the driver is nothing to do with directx 12. then mantle and dx12 have no similarities or ties with each other?

You must have missed the part when i talked about the Xboxone low level api being a possible background for mantle and DX12. considering AMD would have had their hand in making the api for the xboxone, seeing that it is their own hardware.

 

[LambChop]

Sense, you are making none.

So because an opengl extension that bypasses the driver is nothing to do with directx 12. then mantle and dx12 have no similarities or ties with each other?

You must have missed the part when i talked about the Xboxone low level api being a possible background for mantle and DX12. considering AMD would have had their hand in making the api for the xboxone, seeing that it is their own hardware.

Well you clearly said that Nvidia working on a low level API feature in 2009 could not be related to DX12 as it was OpenGL. Mantle is Vulkan which is OpenGL and DX12's graphics section is D3D. D3D and OpenGL are 2 very different API's. How could Mantle possibly be DX12 if DX12 uses the D3D API and Vulkan is OpenGL ?

 

[Mauller]

Well you clearly said that Nvidia working on a low level API feature in 2009 could not be related to DX12 as it was OpenGL. Mantle is Vulkan which is OpenGL and DX12's graphics section is D3D. D3D and OpenGL are 2 very different API's. How could Mantle possibly be DX12 if DX12 uses the D3D API and Vulkan is OpenGL ?

Vulkan is not OpenGL... Its a completely different entity. hence why they didnt call it opengl 5. since the coding for it is completely different and so are the underlying systems.

They said all that so people would not get confused in thinking that Vulkan was opengl... clearly didn't get through to you.

 

[D.P.]

Let's jump back a little bit...

DX12 was in development way before Mantle. People like, Nvidia, Qualcomm and AMD all were involved at the beginning.

Devs (Not AMD) push for a low level API. DICE/EA create Mantle in collaboration with AMD (who originally was involved in the DX12 development remember) to produce the API that devs wanted. It was nice of AMD to 'assist' with it already working on the DX12 development previously.

Mantle never makes final release but guises itself in Beta for eternity.

Jump forward a bit, DX12 gets a release date with W10.

Mantle suddenly becomes DX12 lol.

Can you see how silly it is ?

I've given up trying to explain basic facts to fanboys.

Microsoft, Nvidia, ATI and others were trying work toward a DX12-like API since 2005, so was the OpenGL. It is quite obvious an API designed around fixed-fucntion immediate mode rendering is not optimal for fully programmable pipelines of modern GPUs. Similarly, quite obvious that an API with a single threaded command buffer has to evolve into a multi-threaded solution since single core CPU performance is pretty much stagnant.
Microsoft had experience with low level API's for their consoles, they knew exactly the advantages.


There is nothing complex about a low level API, quite the frigging opposite. That is the whole point, the API is doing far less work and leaves it up the developer. That makes the API much simpler to design. Which is exactly what we saw in the 1990s, every company offered their own low level API to access their hardware, Nvidia and ATI both had their own back then. The reason Nvidia did so well, and later ATI was they started supporting OpenGL and then DX which opened a whole world of software and developer friendly hardware.

 

[D.P.]

Vulkan is not OpenGL... Its a completely different entity. hence why they didnt call it opengl 5. since the coding for it is completely different and so are the underlying systems.

They said all that so people would not get confused in thinking that Vulkan was opengl... clearly didn't get through to you.

Vulkan is OpenGl Next

 

[D.P.]

That is an openGL extension... nothing to do with DX12.

That is an OpenGL extension because OpenGl allow easy incorporation of extensions and DX doesn't.

 

[D.P.]

And the forza thing. No doubt to show that DX12 works with nvidia hardware considering the miss information that mantle only works on AMD GCN Cards.

Mantle did onyl work on GCN card, AMD say so themselves! What other card does it work on?

 

[Mauller]

Vulkan is OpenGl Next

OpenGL Next was just a working name for the project. Vulkan shares nothing with opengl. its underlying systems are mostly Mantle while the interface is SpirV.

Mantle did onyl work on GCN card, AMD say so themselves! What other card does it work on?

I am talking about the way mantle was designed. It was not made to specifically work only on GCN. AMD just never got to the point where they gave out an SDK for other IHV's to use and make a mantle driver. And so for political reasons AMD ended up making Mantle part of Vulkan. etc.

 

[Kaapstad]

Mantle has got nothing in common with DX12 at all. There may be some things that they can both do in the same way as petrol and electric powered vehicles can use the road but they are very different.

DX12 can run to a greater or lesser extent on different generations of NVidia cards, Mantle is totally incompatible with any NVidia card from any generation.

If anyone thinks that Mantle is the same as DX12 they are welcome to try and get it to run on a Maxwell card.

 

[D.P.]

Comparison of the functions between Vulkan and Mantle:
http://i.imgur.com/aq62YN7.jpg

I can find many openGL names that are equivalent, does that mean Mantle is just a copy of OpenGl? I'm sure someone who know DX can find similar.

It is a graphics APi, of course many commands are going to be the same.
I can find commands with the same name in Javascript as I can in C, Qbasic, python and R. does that mean they are all the same?