AMD likely to win Nintendo NX and continue console dominance

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

lol of course, so if you asked people if the 660 was a weak part they'd tell you otherwise....

Half the performance of a GTX970. Argument in an empty house springs to mind

FTFY.

So basically E-PEEN and purchase justification on your part??

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

Go and play some games instead of post-purchase rationalisation on your part.

 

[Silent_Scone]

I guess it's ok in your world if people know you there.

 

[andybird123]

Where do you get your sales and useage data from CAT? Because I cant find anywhere that accurately says what PC gamers are actually using, or any sales breakdowns by model number.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I guess it's ok in your world if people know you there.

Maybe in your little world where everyone is running 4K screens and dual cards. But,wait in the realworld according to Steam most people are not.

You might faint when you see what hardware our most critical military and space systems run on. Heck,I even met a few devs,who have developed for the last two generations of consoles. People who developed sensor packages for ESA missions and so on.

But thats the problem with PC E-PEEN master race measurebators. They look at hardware but forget software is as much an important factor as anything.

The Humble Space telescope runs on a flipping 486 and so did our Type23s until recently.The Curiosity rover on Mars runs off a 200MHZ CPU made on a 150NM process with 256MB of RAM.

The thing is though,that the PS4 chip is not only an APU its also a SOC and one of the most powerful ever made by any metric.

Where do you get your sales and useage data from CAT? Because I cant find anywhere that accurately says what PC gamers are actually using, or any sales breakdowns by model number.

Steam does breakdowns of commonly used res and so on. But ultimately,we are on a hardware enthusiast forum - a hardware enthusiast forum in the UK.

You need to think the whole world - people really need to get out more if they think 4K screens and SLI/XFire cards are common hardware for PC gamers.

They are not - this is a forum where ALL the like minded people in the UK meet.

 

[Silent_Scone]

You are babbling. I don't recall forgetting software? If you look that was the premise of my first reply to Gregg.

Carry on.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

You are babbling.

You are deflecting and nobody agrees with you,not even Boomstick who spends £1000s each year on hardware.

Stroke your E-PEEN more,if it makes you feel better.

For a person who complains a lot about consoles you are doing a lot of posting in a thread about something you don't like.

 

[andybird123]

Thing is CAT, the gtx970 is more common, even according to the highly unreliable steam survey

 

[Silent_Scone]

You are deflecting and nobody agrees with you,not even Boomstick who spends £1000s each year on hardware.

Stroke your E-PEEN more,if it makes you feel better.

For a person who complains a lot about consoles you are doing a lot of posting in a thread about something you don't like.

Calling something for what it is comparitively compared to current PC hardware isn't complaining, that's a simple fact.

If you don't know any better then a 660GTX could be commended for being powerful, sure.


Just like to some people you're probably right. Somewhere. I don't recall making any e-peen statements considering my first post was largely complaining at the state of the PC graphics industry.

Check your angle Cat, you're about to fall over

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Thing is CAT, the gtx970 is more common, even according to the highly unreliable steam survey

But look at the make up of the cards.

Mostly sub £200 cards.

Only the GTX970,HD7900 series and GTX770 could be considered more expensive cards.

But a lot of HD7950 cards were essentially under £200 with AMD price cutting them.

Calling something for what it is comparitively compared to current PC hardware isn't complaining, that's a simple fact.

If you don't know any better then a 660GTX could be commended for being powerful, sure.


Just like to some people you're probably right. Somewhere. I don't recall making any e-peen statements considering my first post was largely complaining at the state of the PC graphics industry.

Check your angle Cat, you're about to fall over

No,its more the case you think the PS4 GPU is weak,when its not compared to common gaming hardware.

As a APU its not weak at all,especially considering the disposition of the market,especially last year.

Its about comparable to what many people might be using especially when the PS4 was launched a year ago.

Nobody was saying it was an uber power house,but its not weak per se.

It will be probably considered weak when the first new node GPUs next year are launched late last year at under £200ish.

Then you go about 4K,when hardly anybody plays at 4K.

1920X1080,1600X900 and 1366X768 are the most common gaming resolutions. The bottom metric is people having dual 1920X1080 monitors.

Most TVs are either 1280X720 or 1920X1080 too.

I don't recall forgetting software? If you look that was the premise of my first reply to Gregg.

Carry on.

Just saw your edit.

But since you acknowledge software is important then basically you are saying you cannot compare the hardware of PCs and consoles directly,since they are not running the same software,or even have the same optimisations.

Which is the whole point of why just looking at hardware specs blindly is not an instant answer to things.

 

[Orangey]

Steam survey is worthless. It doesn't even give you an accurate picture of Steam userbase.

This is an ENTHUSIAST forum, we aren't afraid to call a spade a spade and don't delude ourselves into thinking mid-range junk is somehow "better" because it costs less. Go round some of these casual forums, the people there mock high-end owners for "wasting money" and "my 7950 is only a few fps less than your Titan X". I don't care what mainstream people think, they are morons.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Steam survey is worthless. It doesn't even give you an accurate picture of Steam userbase.

This is an ENTHUSIAST forum, we aren't afraid to call a spade a spade and don't delude ourselves into thinking mid-range junk is somehow "better" because it costs less. Go round some of these casual forums, the people there mock high-end owners for "wasting money" and "my 7950 is only a few fps less than your Titan X". I don't care what mainstream people think, they are morons.

Which ultimately means eff all. If you think being an enthusiast is about what hardware you pack its deluded. So what about all the case modders who build amazing hand built PCs??

Or my mate who made an ammo-box ITX gaming build using a single slot card? Not a Titan X beater but bloody awesome.

They are not enthusiasts??

Most of my builds are SFF,so I prefer small,compact and quiet builds over big and noisy. Its why the mini-ITX GTX970 cards and Fury Nano are the only cards into two years I have been excited about. Its why I am excited about HBM2 and what AMD and Nvidia can do in card form factors.


Obviously,I am not an enthusiast.



It just shows you insecure so many "hardware enthusiasts" are - they are more worried about stroking their E-PEEN than actually being gamers.

So they look down on anyone who runs a console or does not run a £800 card.

It just shows you how indoctrinated people have become to E-PEEN marketing.

The whole enthusiast segment 20 years ago started out of people modding hardware so they DIDN'T NEED to spend top dollar.

Now,its just devolved into post puchase justification syndrome,since companies have been savvy in exploiting that.

If consoles are not of concern for you then why post in threads about consoles - go back to gaming on 4K screens at ULTRA res.

Enjoy your UBER rig instead of looking down on people.

Oh wait,must feel better about purchase.

The whole consoles are crap crowd in these threads are usually:
1.)People who would never buy one
2.)People who spend loads on their PC and have far more power than 90% of gamers out there.

Going by the crap which is posted on forums you would think that no game could be run above 30FPS at 1920X1080 unless you rock like £600+ of cards and a £400 CPU.

Its make me wonder how many people have ended up buying consoles enough since the UBER PC enthusiast crowd seem to think you need UBER hardware to run everything.

Heck,the best Starcraft player I knew (in the top 10% of players worldwide) was rocking a fricking ancient Phenom II X4 and an HD6870.

Its a hobby - be happy with what you have and don't expect anyone to agree with your purchases. Otherwise you will be always be unhappy.

 

[Pottsey]

“I've already admitted that the original article I read was a misquote, not sure what else you want from me on that one.”

You keep saying that, then you keep coming up with statement that are not in the original article or the article you linked to. For example you said “the original quote you were supposed to be working off was series5XT” where did that come from?

You have made lots of statement like that which are not true.

“do that with anyone and you'll turn up some very large numbers, but no one else bothers doing it for headlines.”

That’s wrong. The mobile world is different and its not done just for the headlines as it common practices to show the increase in efficiency core for core at the same power level in the mobile world. NVidia have done the same things with their own chips. They also do things like show 5+ generations in a slide showing a x100 performance change. NVidia often talk about the performance increase of new chips compared older chips. Not got time to dig though lots of examples.

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/7905/GTC2014_Tegra_Roadmap_575px.jpg shows a x80 performance change

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/7905/2013_Tegra_Roadmap_575px.jpg shows a x100 performance change throughout the generations.

“At the point they made that statement, in 2011, the SGX535 was, according to PowerVR, 4 years old already, it then took them until 2014 to get a chip out that was "100x" faster, so 8 years...”

I am not sure what you are trying to get at? What is wrong with that? In 2011 they said in 5 more years we will have x100 the performance of the SGX535. In 5 more years they not only gave us x100 the performance of the SGX535 they gave us a product that is over x200 the performance of the SGX535.

They massively exceeded what they said they would do within the timeframe they said they would do it.

I don’t understand what your problem is. The statement was clear. The goal was clear. The goal was not only reached but exceed by a lot. You do the math. ALU performance off-screen went from 0.4fps to 95.1fps within the timeframe they gave. All the stuff you said about only double performance is wrong.

 

[ALXAndy]

Which ultimately means eff all. If you think being an enthusiast is about what hardware you pack its deluded. So what about all the case modders who build amazing hand built PCs??

Or my mate who made an ammo-box ITX gaming build using a single slot card? Not a Titan X beater but bloody awesome.

They are not enthusiasts??

Most of my builds are SFF,so I prefer small,compact and quiet builds over big and noisy.

Obviously,I am not an enthusiast.



It just shows you insecure so many "hardware enthusiasts" are - they are more worried about stroking their E-PEEN than actually being gamers.

So they look down on anyone who runs a console or does not run a £800 card.

It just shows you how indoctrinated people have become to E-PEEN marketing.

The whole enthusiast segment 20 years ago started out of people modding hardware so they DIDN'T NEED to spend top dollar.

Now,its just devolved into post puchase justification syndrome,since companies have been savvy in exploiting that.

If consoles are not of concern for you then why post in threads about consoles - go back to gaming on 4K screens at ULTRA res.

Oh wait,must feel better about purchase.

The whole consoles are crap crowd in these threads are usually:
1.)People who would never buy one
2.)People who spend loads on their PC and have far more power than 90% of gamers out there.

Going by the crap which is posted on forums you would think that no game could be run above 30FPS at 1920X1080 unless you rock like £600+ of cards and a £400 CPU.

Its make me wonder how many people have ended up buying consoles enough since the PC enthusiast crowd seem to think you need UBER hardware to run everything.

Heck,the best Starcraft player I knew (in the top 10% of players worldwide) was rocking a fricking ancient Phenom II X4 and an HD6870.

Its a hobby - be happy with what you have and don't expect anyone to agree with your purchases. Otherwise you will be always be unhappy.

I've learned that there's a big difference between a gamer and a so called enthusiast. Gamers game, enthusiasts pretend to but run benchmarks instead.

Thankfully I've never had the money to be a true enthusiast by the OCUK forums meaning. Probably a good thing. I built my first enthusiast rig last year. It cost me £3500. I've barely made a grand back so far.

Never again. I mean I do love 4k but yeah,sticking to a single GPU with a strict limit on spending. This year I spent £1500 and I am happier than ever.

 

[mmj_uk]

No, XBOX One is the lowest denominator, it's esRAM pool isn't nearly as good as PS4's unified memory pool of GDDR5. However this still has limitations as streaming all this geometry and shaders is limited by the same envelope that the GPU is limited to.

XBox One has 8GB of about 100GB/s unified memory with help from the ESRAM (it's actually ~65GB/s memory but the ESRAM acts as a cache), a modern PC has a comparatively garbage 16GB/s PCI-E bus linking the GPU and its local memory to the rest of the system.

PS4 & Xbox One are far more elegant/efficient designs compared to PC's. Hopefully HBM will eventually see PC's move to a unified memory design removing the big bottlenecks like the PCI-E bus.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I've learned that there's a big difference between a gamer and a so called enthusiast. Gamers game, enthusiasts pretend to but run benchmarks instead.

Thankfully I've never had the money to be a true enthusiast by the OCUK forums meaning. Probably a good thing. I built my first enthusiast rig last year. It cost me £3500. I've barely made a grand back so far.

Never again. I mean I do love 4k but yeah,sticking to a single GPU with a strict limit on spending. This year I spent £1500 and I am happier than ever.

But I also don't understand all the hatred directed towards consoles either - some of the best games I have played in the last 10 years have been multi-platform.

Look at things like the fact you have large expenses of wildiness without loading screens in modern RPG games - that was down to games like Skyrim which were developed to work across platforms.

If anything there seems to be a lot of misplaced anger directed at consoles.

The discrete market is shrinking and performance jumps are getting harder and harder and more expensive as process nodes get stretched out - we are not seeing the massive improvements in performance every year now.

People forget in the "good old days" the PC was as inefficient as ever,but it was masked by massive improvements in raw performance each year.

Now,that this has slowed down,we are starting to see the inefficiencies of the PC as a gaming platform.

This is why DX12 and Vulkan are key to the future of PC gaming IMHO.

But enthusiasts also fail to realise that companies like Crytek and CD Projekt RED, who pushed the PC as the best platform,basically ended up not making enough money with games like Crysis and The Witcher so started doing stuff for consoles.

Even Planetside,which was long the preserve of PC gaming,is now on the PS4.

Even the other most popular PC only games have a lowest common denominator in mind when it comes to graphics and so on.

At least in actual performance the newer consoles should race that minimum bar somewhat.

If anything a lot of the problems with the PCs has been down to devs themselves and Microsoft,not the actual consoles.

You only need to look at DX12 to realise how inefficient DX11,DX10 and DX9 are on modern hardware. Yet the consoles with far less hardware over the last decade have done so much more with them and Microsoft was aware of that anyway,especially as they created the Xbox series of consoles.

Then the devs,trying to save money by doing crap jobs on the PC versions of games,since they assume PC gamers will spend £100s on hardware just to get the game to run. Basically they transfer the optimisation costs to the PC owners who need to run the games.

Then AMD and Nvidia getting into the mix too.

People should be directing their anger at them,especially as PC games are now getting more and more expensive now.

 

[FoxEye]

Ye gads, the forum has gone full retard tonight. This thread and others.

What the hell happened since lunchtime?

 

[layte]

XBox One has 8GB of about 100GB/s unified memory with help from the ESRAM (it's actually ~65GB/s memory but the ESRAM acts as a cache), a modern PC has a comparatively garbage 16GB/s PCI-E bus linking the GPU and its local memory to the rest of the system.

PS4 & Xbox One are far more elegant/efficient designs compared to PC's. Hopefully HBM will eventually see PC's move to a unified memory design removing the big bottlenecks like the PCI-E bus.

The PS4 and Bone only have about 6GB of memory available for everything (as the OS grabs a couple of gig). Graphics, game code, sound, everything. My PC has 12GB of memory just for the graphics, you don't need to be streaming data constantly from main memory to the GPU.

As for just how much a bottleneck the PCI-E bus is, well we have all seen the various tests... Bandwidth only becomes a problem when you have multiple high end GPU's running very high resolutions (far higher than anything a console can manage). They are different design philosophies, both have advantages, and their disadvantages.

 

[arc@css]

Ye gads, the forum has gone full retard tonight. This thread and others.

What the hell happened since lunchtime?

Can't say I noticed any difference.

 

[Silent_Scone]

XBox One has 8GB of about 100GB/s unified memory with help from the ESRAM (it's actually ~65GB/s memory but the ESRAM acts as a cache), a modern PC has a comparatively garbage 16GB/s PCI-E bus linking the GPU and its local memory to the rest of the system.

PS4 & Xbox One are far more elegant/efficient designs compared to PC's. Hopefully HBM will eventually see PC's move to a unified memory design removing the big bottlenecks like the PCI-E bus.

Sorry but there is so much wrong with this comment it's too late to bother correcting. PCIE bandwidth is not a bottleneck in terms of graphics. GPU have enough memory, faster memory in this case to cope without having to transfer much in the way of meaningful data across I/O.

With DX12 the improvements and some of the newer features do have significant benefits in terms of memory usage (which can both reduce the amount of data sent over the bus to the card in the first place and also the amount of data sent through the pipeline once on the card, so it anything it's likely to be less of an issue.

The PS4 and Bone only have about 6GB of memory available for everything (as the OS grabs a couple of gig). Graphics, game code, sound, everything. My PC has 12GB of memory just for the graphics, you don't need to be streaming data constantly from main memory to the GPU.

As for just how much a bottleneck the PCI-E bus is, well we have all seen the various tests... Bandwidth only becomes a problem when you have multiple high end GPU's running very high resolutions (far higher than anything a console can manage). They are different design philosophies, both have advantages, and their disadvantages.

yay, sense.

 

[ALXAndy]

But I also don't understand all the hatred directed towards consoles either - some of the best games I have played in the last 10 years have been multi-platform.

Look at things like the fact you have large expenses of wildiness without loading screens in modern RPG games - that was down to games like Skyrim which were developed to work across platforms.

If anything there seems to be a lot of misplaced anger directed at consoles.

The discrete market is shrinking and performance jumps are getting harder and harder and more expensive as process nodes get stretched out - we are not seeing the massive improvements in performance every year now.

People forget in the "good old days" the PC was as inefficient as ever,but it was masked by massive improvements in raw performance each year.

Now,that this has slowed down,we are starting to see the inefficiencies of the PC as a gaming platform.

This is why DX12 and Vulkan are key to the future of PC gaming IMHO.

But enthusiasts also fail to realise that companies like Crytek and CD Projekt RED, who pushed the PC as the best platform,basically ended up not making enough money with games like Crysis and The Witcher so started doing stuff for consoles.

Even Planetside,which was long the preserve of PC gaming,is now on the PS4.

Even the other most popular PC only games have a lowest common denominator in mind when it comes to graphics and so on.

At least in actual performance the newer consoles should race that minimum bar somewhat.

If anything a lot of the problems with the PCs has been down to devs themselves and Microsoft,not the actual consoles.

You only need to look at DX12 to realise how inefficient DX11,DX10 and DX9 are on modern hardware. Yet the consoles with far less hardware over the last decade have done so much more with them and Microsoft was aware of that anyway,especially as they created the Xbox series of consoles.

Then the devs,trying to save money by doing crap jobs on the PC versions of games,since they assume PC gamers will spend £100s on hardware just to get the game to run. Basically they transfer the optimisation costs to the PC owners who need to run the games.

Then AMD and Nvidia getting into the mix too.

People should be directing their anger at them,especially as PC games are now getting more and more expensive now.

I don't hate consoles tbh. If I had any bloody sense I would have one. Thing is for the most part I don't, so I game on an unstable buggy platform and that can be frustrating. Thankfully I've now ditched SLI for a single card so I am hoping that will aid in a smoother overall experience

TBH last year I played through South Park on a GTX 480 in an old Dell rig.It was epic, probably the most fun I'd had in years gaming.