BT and the Law

paradisiac · 20 Jul 2015 at 21:10

ok, so I have been with BT for years. I have recently received confirmation I can upgrade to fibre so I placed my order and thought all was good.
a week or so later I get a letter saying I need to ring them regarding my order. After speaking to someone I am told the order is pending until I pay 2 outstanding accounts. How do I have 2 other accounts I asked with the usual 'we don't have access to that information'. I asked when these accounts were closed to be told it was back in Nov 2008. I questioned why a) they somehow managed to let me open up more than one account if I was in debt and b) how I had never received so much as a letter regarding these debts. Again, no useful information provided. So after a week of being passed around from department and managers im still no further forward. Apart from......... I have been told by TWO thats right TWO people in billing that I do not owe anything on my account it has been paid and notes would be made. which they were not when I speak to another department to get the order processed. These promises were recorded so I believe would could as a verbal contract that there is no debt? But when I asked them to listen to the tapes I was told they couldnt until Monday (today) but when I call them they said they dont need to listen to them as they are not relevant.
Also, the debt is over 6 years old, so as far as I am aware, and I have asked people in law and they agree, Under the Limitation Act 1980 a creditor has six years to chase most unsecured unpaid debts, or twelve years for some mortgage shortfalls. This 'limitation period' starts from the time of your last payment or acknowledgement of the debt, not the total length of time you've been making payments. Meaning as I have never had a letter, I have never acknowledged or paid towards this debt therefore they cannot chase it?

Does anyone know how I would contact someone with the ability to give a straight answer and explain to me why UK law does not apply to them?

Scuzi · 20 Jul 2015 at 21:16

You want a straight answer from BT? Good luck with that.

I had a terrible experience with them. I came here for advice and it was recommended that I email the CEO. My initial reaction was that it would be completely pointless as the CEO is not actually going to read my email and even if he did, it's way below his level of concern.

Out of desperation, I went against my gut and went with the advice and emailed the CEO. It would seem like it's a secret handshake to the "Executive Complaints Team". I was contacted shortly after by a scouser (who sounded like he dressed like a Phones4U salesman and wore too much Davidoff Cool Water) who managed to sort the problem.

Give it a go. [email protected] IIRC.

ChrisD. · 20 Jul 2015 at 21:17

I'd complain. As above, go to the CEO, you'll get a response back from a senior complaint officer. Email will be available via Google.

Caged · 20 Jul 2015 at 21:32

[email protected] used to go to that team (in 2012), no idea if it still does.

paradisiac · 20 Jul 2015 at 21:36

i have found [email protected] as the CEO so am sending him an email now. I cant believe how hard it is to get a straight answer and how im told there is no debt one minute and the next i do and they still chase people for 10-20 years or more. am i not understanding the limitations act right or is it pretty clear debts only last for 6 years from last acknowledgment?

Rainmaker · 20 Jul 2015 at 22:09

paradisiac said:
i have found [email protected] as the CEO so am sending him an email now. I cant believe how hard it is to get a straight answer and how im told there is no debt one minute and the next i do and they still chase people for 10-20 years or more. am i not understanding the limitations act right or is it pretty clear debts only last for 6 years from last acknowledgment?

I can't help with the CEO email, but the alleged debt (which probably doesn't even exist outside a computer gremlin) is definitely statue barred. A template for you:

Dear Sir or Madam,

Re: Alleged outstanding accounts

I refer to my recent order for (PRODUCT), order number (NUMBER), which has been delayed following allegations of outstanding monies on two other accounts listed in my name. For the avoidance of doubt I deny ever holding such accounts, and categorically dispute the alleged debts.

Further or in the alternative, I would point out that under Section 5 of The Limitation Act 1980 “an action founded on simple contract shall not be brought after the expiration of six years from the date on which the cause of action accrued.” I would also point out that the Office of Fair Trading state under their Debt Collection Guidance on statute barred debt that “it is unfair to pursue the debt if the debtor has heard nothing from the creditor during the relevant limitation period”.

Your own employees have variously stated to me during phone calls that (1) the debts are mistakes made by BT and that they will be cleared off your system and (2) the alleged debts originate from a period over seven years ago. As such, unless you can provide evidence of legitimate accounts which also have received payment or written contact from me in the relevant preceding six year period under Section 5 of the Limitation Act, I suggest that you are unable to take any action against me to recover the alleged amounts claimed.

I hereby formally remind you that any such action will be averred as both unlawful and vexatious being you have no legal entity in which to carry out your threat. Any such action will result in my counter-claiming for damages and all costs relating to your offence.

The OFT Debt Collection Guidance states further that “continuing to press for payment after a debtor has stated that they will not be paying a debt because it is statute barred could amount to harassment contrary to The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008”.

I await your written confirmation that this matter is now closed and that no further contact will be made concerning the above 'phantom' accounts, and that my legitimate order for (PRODUCT) will proceed accordingly.

Yours faithfully,

IANAL and all that but I used to do a fair bit for the Consumer Action Group and others. The above should do the job but of course feel free to seek proper qualified advice if you're worried. Good luck mate.

paradisiac · 20 Jul 2015 at 22:19

Rainmaker said:
I can't help with the CEO email, but the alleged debt (which probably doesn't even exist outside a computer gremlin) is definitely statue barred. A template for you:

IANAL and all that but I used to do a fair bit for the Consumer Action Group and others. The above should do the job but of course feel free to seek proper qualified advice if you're worried. Good luck mate.

thank you for the info. i have spoken to family and friends that work in the legal industry and they have all agreed that this debt is statute barred and could not see how BT could be admitting to chasing people for as long as 10-20 years for debts. i am hoping that the CEO will see sense and fix the issue, as i am sure a legal battle with BT would be very costly

Rainmaker · 20 Jul 2015 at 22:23

paradisiac said:
thank you for the info. i have spoken to family and friends that work in the legal industry and they have all agreed that this debt is statute barred and could not see how BT could be admitting to chasing people for as long as 10-20 years for debts. i am hoping that the CEO will see sense and fix the issue, as i am sure a legal battle with BT would be very costly

There would never be a 'legal battle'. They'd either receive the letter (or email) and rectify their mistake, or you can report them to the Office of the Information Commissioner for inaccurately reporting your personal data (it's free). Their legal team would never issue proceedings based on a 7 year old 'debt', though BT are certainly a customer service headache. Good luck with the CEO, I hope you get your FTTC soon.

paradisiac · 20 Jul 2015 at 22:30

Rainmaker said:
There would never be a 'legal battle'. They'd either receive the letter (or email) and rectify their mistake, or you can report them to the Office of the Information Commissioner for inaccurately reporting your personal data (it's free). Their legal team would never issue proceedings based on a 7 year old 'debt', though BT are certainly a customer service headache. Good luck with the CEO, I hope you get your FTTC soon.

thank you for your help. i hope it gets sorted soon too, been waiting for ages for fibre, then when its available it turns into a headache, shame no other companies will fit it.

Rroff · 20 Jul 2015 at 22:30

Regarding statute barred AFAIK this isn't an automatic thing (EDIT: though as rainmaker basically says most companies will know well enough not to pursue it) I'm not an expert on it but I believe you need a court judgement for it to be barred - at which point they will get a chance to present evidence that they have made a reasonable attempt to contact you/pursue the debt in the last 6 years - doesn't matter if you've seen anything about the debt or not.

BT frontline support are pretty useless if its anything other than the most basic of on script issues with often no path to resolve the issue - if you've tried a couple of times to sort it reasonably through them then don't hesitate to escalate it to the CEO->ELC who usually sort it pretty quick - shame normal support aren't even a 10th as effective.

paradisiac · 20 Jul 2015 at 22:42

Rroff said:
Regarding statute barred AFAIK this isn't an automatic thing (EDIT: though as rainmaker basically says most companies will know well enough not to pursue it) I'm not an expert on it but I believe you need a court judgement for it to be barred - at which point they will get a chance to present evidence that they have made a reasonable attempt to contact you/pursue the debt in the last 6 years - doesn't matter if you've seen anything about the debt or not.

BT frontline support are pretty useless if its anything other than the most basic of on script issues with often no path to resolve the issue - if you've tried a couple of times to sort it reasonably through them then don't hesitate to escalate it to the CEO->ELC who usually sort it pretty quick - shame normal support aren't even a 10th as effective.

one of the ladies argued with me when i said they couldnt chase it for more than 6 years saying she has worked for BT for over 5 years and has been contacting people from as far back as 2000 asking for the money and that as BT are a 'huge' company i am wrong as they would in no way do anything wrong, and i must therefore pay the outstanding debts, plus an additional £50 deposit to get my fibre.

Rroff · 21 Jul 2015 at 01:23

Its generally pointless for them to chase it if its older than 6 years but not to say they won't try - some companies hope people are ignorant of their rights and will just pay up.

To my knowledge though a debt doesn't automatically become void after 6 years - they can chase it if they wish - most don't bother because if someone did take it to court it would generally be considered an unreasonable elapse of time and the debt would be barred.

MrBukey · 21 Jul 2015 at 21:09

Okay - so something becomes statute barred if it doesn't get acknowledged by you in writing and if you haven't made a payment in 6 years. If you have, then the clock resets at that point.

Something being statute barred doesn't mean that there's no debt - it just means that they can't report it to credit reference agencies nor can they apply to the courts for a CCJ or court order forcing you to pay.

It also means that upon being told that it's statute barred and you're not going to pay it that they can't chase you any more - to do so would be classed as harassment. You simply have to tell them that it's statute barred and you will not be paying for this to happen.

It doesn't mean that the debt doesn't exist though. If BT wanted to they can still refuse to give you further services until you pay the debt. This would be different from initiating any chasing or harassment (if you initiated the request for further services).

All this said, definitely deal with the CEOs office. You've been poorly treated, you're willing to pay them for current and future services, and the CEO's office is the place to sort things like this out.

Good luck!

rtho782 · 21 Jul 2015 at 23:01

IF a debt is statute barred - they can't take any legal action against you. They can't take you to court.

But, you still owe them the money, and they can still ask for it.

They are under no obligation to have you as a customer, and can refuse you service if they like.

Rainmaker · 21 Jul 2015 at 23:16

rtho782 said:
IF a debt is statute barred - they can't take any legal action against you. They can't take you to court.

But, you still owe them the money, and they can still ask for it.

They are under no obligation to have you as a customer, and can refuse you service if they like.

No. As already established throughout the thread to make demand for payment of a debt already established as statute barred is an offence. It's harassment, and also contrary to various pieces of legislation and OFT guidance for holders of consumer credit licenses (which organisations have to abide by to keep hold of said license).

They could however refuse further service. But they won't. The CEO's office should soon sort out the OP, and from the sounds of it all this statute barred discussion is way OT anyway. The OP said BT had confirmed multiple times that the alleged debts (two extraneous accounts) were mistakes on their billing systems.

MrBukey · 22 Jul 2015 at 05:40

Rainmaker said:
No. As already established throughout the thread to make demand for payment of a debt already established as statute barred is an offence. It's harassment, and also contrary to various pieces of legislation and OFT guidance for holders of consumer credit licenses (which organisations have to abide by to keep hold of said license).

A contract for a phone service isn't covered by the Consumer Credit Act, a debt can be generated when a service is provided and payment isn't made instead of credit being offered and this is what happens with phone services.

They do however have to follow various pieces of guidance and legislation as you say (from the OFS, ICO, FOS, etc) - but this wouldn't be to keep a Consumer Credit License, it would simply be because it's the law.

paradisiac · 25 Jul 2015 at 23:24

Well I thought I was getting somewhere, the CEO passed it on to someone who processed my order and the engineer was scheduled for Friday. 2:35pm on Thursday get an email saying porting my number failed so the order had to be cancelled and it takes 24 hours for another order to be generated. Alas on Friday it still had not been cancelled so no new order raised so still no engineer date or any useful information on time.

Are BT the only company that can fit FTTP (even FFTC would be better than what I have now) as when I try companies like sky and talktalk they say I am not in a fibre area.

Tephnos · 25 Jul 2015 at 23:48

paradisiac said:
Well I thought I was getting somewhere, the CEO passed it on to someone who processed my order and the engineer was scheduled for Friday. 2:35pm on Thursday get an email saying porting my number failed so the order had to be cancelled and it takes 24 hours for another order to be generated. Alas on Friday it still had not been cancelled so no new order raised so still no engineer date or any useful information on time.

Are BT the only company that can fit FTTP (even FFTC would be better than what I have now) as when I try companies like sky and talktalk they say I am not in a fibre area.

If there is no fibre cabinet in your area that can deliver FFTC, then you won't get FTTP.

MissChief · 25 Jul 2015 at 23:48

Zen and PlusNet (owned by BT but operated separately) can do FTTP services I believe.

Apparently IDnet and Andrews&Arnold too but they tend to be quite expensive, especially A&A.

paradisiac · 25 Jul 2015 at 23:51

I tried plusnet as they were cheaper than BT but they say I dont live in a fibre area