Huddy on Gameworks round 3

[D.P.]

That's the thing though, AMD need to release hardware that people want to buy. And actually produce enough stock so that those that want to buy it can. People shouldn't HAVE to buy AMD to keep them afloat because they're too incompetent to run their own business and turn a profit. They're not a charity, they're a business.
I agree entirely that we need more than one vendor, but it's AMD's responsibility to see there is competition not our to buy whatever rubbish they release just so Nvidia don't dominate. I really can't see a lot of the AMD fanboys buying Nvidia cards to keep them going if the roles were reversed.

All these people that won't buy Nvidia because they dislike them as a company. Are they really that much worse than Intel or Microsoft or the other big companies? Haven't both of them had issues with anti-competition type lawsuits? Do people avoid Intel CPUs and Microsoft software? Any of the people complaining about Nvidia as a business happen to use Intel CPUs or run Windows? Is this stance so strong that it only works until you want to play a computer game that only runs on Windows and then any ethical issues just get forgotten about?

Can you be sure that every item you own or product you use are from companies that got where they are without any moral compromises or 'underhand' tactics?
It feels sometimes that the decision to hate Nvidia was already made and the reasons were thought up later.

Spot on.

You can always tell an AMD fanboy when they refuse to buy Nvidia GPUs because of "moral" reasons yet happily have their FuryX run with an Intel CPU on windows, drink coffee form Starbucks, eat nestle products, wear clothes produced with child labour, drive a VW/Ford/GM/Mercedes car, eat food chemically treated by Monsanto etc.
At the same time they are perfectly happy to buy form AMD who have been caught cheating in drivers (ATI were the originators of dirty driver tricks back in the 'quack2' days), lied to investors, lied to customers about the FuryX pump whine only affecting reviewer cards and then lied again saying the problem was fixed in retail, purposely withheld driver performance form the 290 series for months at time so AMD could further peddle their lie about the 390 not being a rebrand.


AMD and a nvidia are both businesses that try to make money. AMD's marketing is woeful, always trying to play the victim and blame evil nvidia for their own short comings. There is a very simple solution if AMD doesn't like game works, they can go to the game developers and help them implement the same features with TressFX or whatever. But that costs resources, it is much easier just to shout garbage over the internet and rial up the fanboys

 

[D.P.]

I love it. So Nvidia manage to double their own performance on the same process and same die size, beating AMD on both performance and price in the process, AMD have to increase their die size by 40% as well as switch to hbm to even vaguely attempt to draw level, and that makes nvidia incompetent or dirty?

+++
Really quite incredible the rubbish some people can regurgitate.

 

[bloodkil]

Spoiler

All that is gonna do is start people flaming...

 

[Kaapstad]

Of course they'll attack NVIDIA when Gameworks drastically lowers the performance of their GPU's, on purpose.

AMD can't really release their own version of gameworks, as NVIDIA has 75%+ of the market share - no developer is going to release closed source AMD features, that rape NVIDIA performance, when NVIDIA has a huge market majority.

Obviously it's the NVIDIA users in this thread and others who'll flock to their beloved GPU vendor and defend them, no matter what.

Just remember that you guys will be part of the reason why NVIDIA will be the sole GPU vendor in the future, and will charge £1000 for each top end GPU, giving 5% more performance, while crippling the previous generation GPU performance via driver updates, all in the name of $$$.

+1, this is exactly what will happen, unless AMD release a new generation that has significantly more performance, significantly more performance per watt, significantly more VRAM.

Even then, the diehard NVIDIA lovers will want to still keep their NVIDIA cards, as Shadowplay 'changed their lives' etc, or they like the colour green, or any of the silly reasoning such people use.

Do you know anything at all about NVidia cards ?

Check out the performance difference between the Kepler Titan and the Maxwell TitanX and you may want to edit your posts.

The difference is a lot more than the 5% you are suggesting.

 

[Kaapstad]

@Dave2150

Just to help you out so you know the difference, here are my Maxwell and Keplaer Titans performing on the Firestrike ultra bench.

4 GPU Scores.

1. Score 16755, GPU TitanX @1429/1977, GFX Score 18526, Physics Score 21519, Combined Score 8177, CPU 5960X @4.5, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 353.06
2. Score 14834, GPU Fury X @1125/500, GFX Score 16521, Physics Score 24011, Combined Score 6342, CPU 5960X @4.9, AMDMatt - Link Drivers 15.7
3. Score 12386, GPU 980 @1482/2002, GFX Score 13832, Physics Score 21288, Combined Score 5138, CPU 5960X @4.5, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 347.52
4. Score 11943, GPU 980 @1550/2018, GFX Score 13818, Physics Score 15206, Combined Score 5106, CPU 3930k @4.9, Besty - Link Drivers 347.52
5. Score 11333, GPU 290X @1238/1625, GFX Score 12786, Physics Score 17679, Combined Score 4739, CPU 3970X @4.9, AMDMatt - Link Drivers 14.9
6. Score 10980, GPU 290X @1220/1500, GFX Score 12217, Physics Score 21707, Combined Score 4392, CPU 5960X @4.5, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 14.12
7. Score 10832, GPU 290X @1235/1500, GFX Score 12187, Physics Score 18143, Combined Score 4444, CPU 4930k @4.8, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 14.9
8. Score 7335, GPU nvTitan @837/1502, GFX Score 7856, Physics Score 14488, Combined Score 3278, CPU 3930k @4.0, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 344.11

I think the difference is a little bit more than 5% don't you ?

 

[thebennyboy]

Do you know anything at all about NVidia cards ?

Check out the performance difference between the Kepler Titan and the Maxwell TitanX and you may want to edit your posts.

The difference is a lot more than the 5% you are suggesting.

I think he means that is what may happen in the future if AMD really starts to struggle to compete. Just look at Intel, we're lucky to get more than 5% increases in performance per generation.

 

[fs123]

The kepler cards such as the 780ti were faster than a 290X back in the early days but somehow they are 10-15% slower now in the latest games. Why is that when the 290X still manages to stay within 30-40% of a TitanX?

Let's hope we don't have just Nvidia cards to compare against in future otherwise a year old card will suddenly drop off in performance quickly when the next gen card is released...if you know what I mean..

From Kaapstad's Firetrike table we can see that the gpu score for Kepler Titan (780Ti Equivalent) which was faster than a 290X at launch is less than half the performance of the TitanX but the 290X is about 30% slower than a TX. Can anyone explain why especially since the Nvidia cards are better at tesselation.?

4 GPU Scores.

1. Score 16755, GPU TitanX @1429/1977, GFX Score 18526, Physics Score 21519, Combined Score 8177, CPU 5960X @4.5, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 353.06
   
2. Score 10980, GPU 290X @1220/1500, GFX Score 12217, Physics Score 21707, Combined Score 4392, CPU 5960X @4.5, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 14.12
3. Score 10832, GPU 290X @1235/1500, GFX Score 12187, Physics Score 18143, Combined Score 4444, CPU 4930k @4.8, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 14.9
4. Score 7335, GPU nvTitan @837/1502, GFX Score 7856, Physics Score 14488, Combined Score 3278, CPU 3930k @4.0, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 344.11

 

[Boomstick777]

You can always turn Gameworks off, and the latest AMD cards with better tessellation support do well in heavy tessellated titles. Doesn't that show that hardware is also a factor?

As bad as Gameworks is, so is lack of hardware, especially working hardware.

Neither camp is perfect, but surely it's better to answer with good products rather than more tit for tat articles.

 

[Kaapstad]

I think he means that is what may happen in the future if AMD really starts to struggle to compete. Just look at Intel, we're lucky to get more than 5% increases in performance per generation.

I just used a couple of his posts but there are plenty more where of his that are full of ranting and speculation rather than facts.

If people are going to debate different brands and find areas where it is necessary to be critical it is best to base it on fact !!!

For example we could criticise NVidia for the high price of the Titan X or the fact that their 900 series cards use a 256 and 384 bit bus which is weak @2160p compared to the 512 bit and HBM memory systems on AMD cards.

 

[Kaapstad]

From Kaapstad's Firetrike table we can see that the gpu score for Kepler Titan (780Ti Equivalent) which was faster than a 290X at launch is less than half the performance of the TitanX but the 290X is about 30% slower than a TX. Can anyone explain why especially since the Nvidia cards are better as tesselation.?

4 GPU Scores.

1. Score 16755, GPU TitanX @1429/1977, GFX Score 18526, Physics Score 21519, Combined Score 8177, CPU 5960X @4.5, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 353.06
   
2. Score 10980, GPU 290X @1220/1500, GFX Score 12217, Physics Score 21707, Combined Score 4392, CPU 5960X @4.5, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 14.12
3. Score 10832, GPU 290X @1235/1500, GFX Score 12187, Physics Score 18143, Combined Score 4444, CPU 4930k @4.8, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 14.9
4. Score 7335, GPU nvTitan @837/1502, GFX Score 7856, Physics Score 14488, Combined Score 3278, CPU 3930k @4.0, Kaapstad - Link Drivers 344.11

Firestrike Ultra is not the best bench to test Tessellation, if you want to do that use Heaven 4 @2160p where the 290X and original Titans are much closer to getter. If you check out the 4 way 1080p scores the 290Xs are actually faster than the original Titans !!!

 

[Gerard]

Mantle was just an attempt by AMD to shift responsiblity of fully optimising games for their cards onto developers, .

You don't half type some utter crap.

 

[mmj_uk]

The kepler cards such as the 780ti were faster than a 290X back in the early days but somehow they are 10-15% slower now in the latest games. Why is that when the 290X still manages to stay within 30-40% of a TitanX?

It's hardly a fair comparison looking at the clockspeeds and AMD have always performed well in synthetic benchmarks anyway, it's games that they generally don't bother to optimise.

You don't half type some utter crap.

Yeah because AMD love doing the work themselves don't they? shifting the dirty work onto developers was actually promoted as a benefit of Mantle by AMD and people are suprised it failed? lol

 

[Gerard]

Yeah because AMD love doing the work themselves don't they? shifting the dirty work onto developers was actually promoted as a benefit of Mantle by AMD and people are suprised it failed? lol

Bla bla bla, we get it you don't like amd. No matter what the subject is about you always have some anti amd crap to toss into the middle of the discussion. I swear with some of you on here its like some pathetic personal vendetta against a friggin tech company. You don't like their products, don't buy them, doesn't give you an excuse to perpetually be on the whine about it.

 

[Orangey]

I wonder when Ubi's bribe money runs out and if they will re-up or remove themselves from this toxic programme.

 

[thebennyboy]

This thread was going so well, with people actually having a DISCUSSION. Now it's just trolling and flaming.

I wonder when Ubi's bribe money runs out and if they will re-up or remove themselves from this toxic programme.

HairWorks actually ran OK for me in FC4. I turned it off though as it looked out of place imo.

 

[Trevonn]

Yeah because AMD love doing the work themselves don't they? shifting the dirty work onto developers was actually promoted as a benefit of Mantle by AMD and people are suprised it failed? lol

If mantle was a plan by AMD to shift the burden onto developers then what do you make of DX12, Vulkan and Apple's Metal?

 

[mmj_uk]

http://www.maximumpc.com/amd-mantle-interview-2014/

A lot of the things an API has traditionally managed aren't really necessary any more. Mantle puts the responsibility onto the developer. Some feel that is too much, but this really isn't any different than managing multiple CPUs on a system, which we have gotten pretty good at. We don't program multiple CPUs with an API, we just handle it ourselves. Mantle gives us a similar capability for the GPU.

Why would developers want the extra responsibility for maximising performance specifically for AMD hardware when they only own around 20% of the market? and Mantle didn't even support all of their cards...

All of the performance benefits AMD promised when Mantle was originally announced failed to appear (except on slow CPU's) but that was just the excuse AMD needed to get gamers onboard so they could push Mantle and shift responsibility for fully optimising their GPU's to developers.

Which option would you choose if you were a developer?

Spend lots of extra time porting your DirectX game to Mantle for a tiny percentage of GPU owners and go through extra effort of low level programming which is solely to AMD's benefit.

Or...

Make your game DirectX compatible, do a bit of optimising but ultimately let AMD/NVidia dedicate their own time and money to getting the most out of their own GPU's.

Tough one for a developer/publisher, not!

 

[thebennyboy]

If mantle was a plan by AMD to shift the burden onto developers then what do you make of DX12, Vulkan and Apple's Metal?

Careful, you're bringing way too much logic into this discussion. Good luck getting an educated reply.

 

[gpuerrilla]

I think he means that is what may happen in the future if AMD really starts to struggle to compete. Just look at Intel, we're lucky to get more than 5% increases in performance per generation.

This is the thing, which the irony comes through. Taking Dave as your example he regularly tarnishes or puts down AMD in the cpu section but doesnt apply his thinking when it comes to processors.

Your quote summed it up. Don't buy AMD then don't expect them to be around forever. The issue with ignoring this is companies like intel and nvidia dominate or have a monopoly.

You just have to accept its a no win situation rooting for the underdog here and only in golden harvest years do they come out with a product that makes the masses switch.

 

[thesmokingman]

It seems some are agnostic about Gameworks and Nvidia's motives but that doesn't change the fact that they are terrraforming the game development process in a bad way. Developers should be held accountable for developing games, not taking subsidies to use Nvidia's libraries that removes their responsibility for optimizing said games.

This practice would be unacceptable in other industry but yet somehow with the ample supply of heavy bias it becomes acceptable. I'm of the opinion that developers responsible for their games to their customers and not hide a middleman/middleware in between. Unfortunately the more you buy these games the more you reinforce to the devs and middleman that their plan is working.