Seven dead after Hawker Hunter hits cars

Akagi · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:26

ZG002 said:
Don't even want to bother countering your opinion. Not when its full of the above

And what exactly is that supposed to mean?

Spitfir3 · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:30

Acme said:
In fact, I just watched it again... At the last moment, he swerved to the left and lined up with the junction, and then levelled out and hit it. I know the area very well, there are vast fields to the left of that road before the industrial complex, and there are hundreds of acres of farmland to the right. Why would he choose to do the stunt there, why would his final movements appear to line the jet up - dead on - with one of the busiest junctions in the area?

...... really.. "At the last moment, he swerved to the left and lined up with the junction" :rolleyes:

I hope you're being sarcastic...

The_Abyss · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:30

Acme said:
And what exactly is that supposed to mean?

If he'd have swerved to the right he'd have hit the Sussex Pad, and all the people outside it.

lafemmefatale · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:32

No expert here but..... the LH wing drop looks like the result of an accelerated stall (hence the large angle of attack in the last few moments). Not deliberate by any means, just an aerodynamic phenomenon.

Danthus · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:32

Acme said:
I just watched the footage, having previously avoided doing so, because I didn't particularly want to... Since it is down the road from me...

I cannot state my thoughts on the pilot for performing that stunt where he did, rather than over the vast amount of nearby fields, lest I cause quite a stir with all the OcUK muppets who will make any excuse to counter my opinion, but I will say that were he not dead, I think he should have received a hefty prison sentence and have been stripped of whatever accolades he may have had.

I am absolutely staggered that he even attempted to perform that stunt there, and I feel this strange kind of anger which I don't feel often...

Furthermore, at the last moment, he swerved to the left and appeared to line up with the junction, and then levelled out and hit it. I know the area very well, there are vast fields to the left of that road before the industrial complex, and there are hundreds of acres of farmland to the right. Why would he choose to do the stunt there, why would his final movements appear to line the jet up - dead on - with one of the busiest junctions in the area?

That junction is where cars have to pass through to exit the local area, it is the biggest junction on the route out of the town going towards the A/M23, it is also where the enterance to the airport is, where cars queue to enter the parking facilities to watch the airshow.

Had he performed the stunt in any of the more appropriate locations, because of how flat the land is in the area, everyone would still have been able to see the stunt just fine.

So why would he perform the stunt there, and what were those final movements meant to achieve?

Akagi · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:33

Spitfir3 said:
...... really.. "At the last moment, he swerved to the left and lined up with the junction" I hope you're being sarcastic...

I'm not being sarcastic, I am being deadly serious. That footage really worries me...

The_Abyss said:
If he'd have swerved to the right he'd have hit the Sussex Pad, and all the people outside it.

Why perform the stunt there in the first place, rather than over the acres and acres of farmland, or over the downs? I just do not understand it. Why didn't he keep swerving to the left until he hit the ground? He wouldn't have struck the junction dead on.

Danthus · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:34

Acme said:
I'm not being sarcastic, I am being deadly serious. That footage really worries me...

You assume that the pilot was able to control the plane.

Akagi · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:37

OldCoals said:
You assume that the pilot was able to control the plane.

Perhaps that is an incorrect assumption.

But it just doesn't make sense to me...

Where he did it, the movements of the plane, and so on. If he had no control over the plane, surely it would have just plummeted?

lafemmefatale said:
No expert here but..... the LH wing drop looks like the result of an accelerated stall (hence the large angle of attack in the last few moments). Not deliberate by any means, just an aerodynamic phenomenon.

Thankyou, I hope this is the case! I really don't want to think that there was any form of intent here. But watching the footage, with my relative ignorance to the way planes work, made me quite concerned.

Even so, I do not understand why this was not performed over the farmland. Surely the risk should have been minimised.

MOOGLEYS · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:40

He was not in control of the aircraft before it crashed. An aircraft with its nose up and still dropping at that altitude is not flying under control. Without a huge amount of engine power on tap to push him back up there is not a lot the pilot can do. For whatever reason he did not have the altitude or thrust to complete the loop. We will find out why once the investigation is complete.

I doubt for one minute it was his intention to crash into the junction.

balky12 · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:41

A plane doesn't just drop out the sky like a brick when you lose control.. Not unless it's wings fall off..

Caged · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:41

That's exactly what a stall is

Rroff · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:42

Acme said:
Perhaps that is an incorrect assumption.

But it just doesn't make sense to me...

Where he did it, the movements of the plane, and so on. If he had no control over the plane, surely it would have just plummeted?

It does just plummet - there is a point where he is falling not flying and just drops out the sky as per ChrisJSY's post. I'm curious about the moment just before the left wing drop might be just my inexperience but looks like things didn't go quite as expected just before the stall out.

Akagi · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:42

I'm sorry for posting my concerns that it could have been intentional, but it was my instinctive reaction to the footage... As I say I do not know much about the subject, but to me, it looked like it could have been.

Even so, as I have said, I don't know why this stunt was performed where it was.

ElectroBlaster · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:42

Attended the Dawlish Airshow yesterday and heard mutterings of an accident but only learnt of the true extent when we arrived home.
The last of the display was cancelled due to poor weather. The display is always carried out over the sea, but it always crosses my mind "What if?"

Some of the pictures being banded about by the media made my stomach turn a bit. Just so they can sell a few more papers I guess

RIP to all that have died.

balky12 · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:44

Caged said:
That's exactly what a stall is

I'm not an expert, clearly, but with a stall the pilot loses control.. But it still is able to move around because of the aerodynamics of the plane? I.e. 'The sudden left turn' acme is describing.

Just because the plane stalled or the pilot lost control doesn't mean it would fly in a straight line. It would still move around..?

Edit. Questions not statements.

Akagi · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:45

I always have a bad feeling about the airshow, it makes me worry.

This time I happened to be away from home, and I got a text from my Mum. "Jet crashed at pad traffic lights, people died, will have to come home different way x"

Dano · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:48

I'd be extremely surprised to discover that his intent was anything other than to recover the aircraft or to minimise casualties, intent and actuality are two different things sadly.

Caged · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:48

balky12 said:
I'm not an expert, clearly, but with a stall the pilot loses control.. But it still is able to move around because of the aerodynamics of the plane? I.e. 'The sudden left turn' acme is describing.

Just because the plane stalled or the pilot lost control doesn't mean it would fly in a straight line. It would still move around..?

Edit. Questions not statements.

Just to be clear 'stall' in this context means the wings aren't producing lift any more. It also makes the control surfaces far less effective. You can see a change in direction if one wing stalls before the other.

It doesn't turn the plane into a glider. The video really doesn't make it look like the pilot had much say in where he was going.

sprite1275 · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:49

Acme said:
I just watched the footage, having previously avoided doing so, because I didn't particularly want to... Since it is down the road from me...

I cannot state my thoughts on the pilot for performing that stunt where he did, rather than over the vast amount of nearby fields, lest I cause quite a stir with all the OcUK muppets who will make any excuse to counter my opinion, but I will say that were he not dead, I think he should have received a hefty prison sentence and have been stripped of whatever accolades he may have had.

I am absolutely staggered that he even attempted to perform that stunt there, and I feel this strange kind of anger which I don't feel often...

Furthermore, at the last moment, he swerved to the left and appeared to line up with the junction, and then levelled out and hit it. I know the area very well, there are vast fields to the left of that road before the industrial complex, and there are hundreds of acres of farmland to the right. Why would he choose to do the stunt there, why would his final movements appear to line the jet up - dead on - with one of the busiest junctions in the area?

That junction is where cars have to pass through to exit the local area, it is the biggest junction on the route out of the town going towards the A/M23, it is also where the enterance to the airport is, where cars queue to enter the parking facilities to watch the airshow.

Had he performed the stunt in any of the more appropriate locations, because of how flat the land is in the area, everyone would still have been able to see the stunt just fine.

So why would he perform the stunt there, and what were those final movements meant to achieve?

I think if he really "wanted" to do this which seems you are implying, he could have caused a lot more devastation than what's happened.

Something has obviously gone wrong whether mechanical, weather or human. Freak things happen and air shows probably have some of the most stringent health and safety going.

OspreyO · 23 Aug 2015 at 23:49

Acme said:
....at the last moment, he swerved to the left and appeared to line up with the junction, and then levelled out and hit it.....

You don't really know if there was a failure of controls or power where the aircraft didn't respond as expected, or if the pilot was conscious. Looked to me he tried to turn to avoid the road, but as the aircraft dipped, (you lose height in a turn) realized his best chance was to stay level and corrected. But ran out of height and or power. For what ever reason aircraft was too low and too slow. I wouldn't be surprised if he lost some or all power for some reason. I know nothing about it this routine and aircraft but I was surprised he started the loop from so low.