They are still dead Dolph.
DWP lies about sanctions
- Thread starter The Geezer
- Start date
They are still dead Dolph.
Indeed they are, but without causal information, comparative base line statistics (either to the general population or just to other groups of claimants) the numbers alone are meaningless, and any attempt to draw a conclusion from the published data can only be the result of dishonesty, ignorance or stupidity.
Still, further backs up my concerns about an adversarial benefits system.
Appeal to emotion? Is that really the best you have?
When people start demanding data, they are demanding numbers on a spreadsheet, and trying to use that to make a point. As soon as they do that, the rules of good data handling must be applied otherwise the conclusions are just drivel.
problem is we have no means of comparing them at the moment
they've given us some data but it is pretty meaningless so far, though if that was deliberate they seem to have already shot themselves in the foot slightly as the press will still happily make a big story out of data that doesn't tell us much
The way people are misusing the figures, deliberately or accidentally, suggests the dwp had a point in not releasing the data...
Why don't they include all the information that was released?
The mortality rate for benefit claimants has fallen from 1111 per 100,000 in 2003 to 1032 per 100,000 in 2013.
Below is the full report in relation to the FOI request, it puts the numbers as best they can be in to context.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/456359/mortality-statistics-esa-ib-sda.pdf
It seems shockingly, that if you are too ill to work, you are and I found this genuinely shocking, no honestly, more likely to die early, because and I think this is key to the discussion, you are very ill.
The mortality rate for benefit claimants has fallen from 1111 per 100,000 in 2003 to 1032 per 100,000 in 2013.
Below is the full report in relation to the FOI request, it puts the numbers as best they can be in to context.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/456359/mortality-statistics-esa-ib-sda.pdf
It seems shockingly, that if you are too ill to work, you are and I found this genuinely shocking, no honestly, more likely to die early, because and I think this is key to the discussion, you are very ill.
Last edited:
The way people are misusing the figures, deliberately or accidentally, suggests the dwp had a point in not releasing the data...
It is almost like cheap point scoring is far more important than people's lives, because of the people were important, they would be seeking more data to make he figures actually usable and determine if there is something that needs to be changed...
many people die while they're employed....
Tens of thousands of people a year die on benefits regardless of if their benefits have been changed, or if they are in the process of being assessed.
Evil Tories killing people by not declaring them fit for work and keeping them on benefits.
It seems as I've said above, people who are too ill to work, either through mental health, physical disability, illness etc are likely to have a higher mortality rate than the general population.
Evil Tory scum etc.
I guess that's why the Tories want to repeal the FOI Act too - keeps inconvenient facts like this buried in government bureaucracies.
- Joined
- 13 Aug 2010
- Posts
- 3,114
What I draw as a conclusion is that these people had their benefits and / or status changed by whomever the assessor was, I would suggest that there was no support given to these people (victims) when they were declared fit for work in terms of counseling or physical conditioning etc.
They were left to their own devices and the outcome is there plain to see an average of 90 victims per month. 96 died at Hillsborough and they only just completing the inquiry now, how long do you think we will have to wait to hear about the vulnerable and poor dying ?
They were left to their own devices and the outcome is there plain to see an average of 90 victims per month. 96 died at Hillsborough and they only just completing the inquiry now, how long do you think we will have to wait to hear about the vulnerable and poor dying ?
the nhs, doctors, nurses, the gp?
yep you're right the second they stop seeing that nice man at the job centre every 13 weeks they just drop dead.
- Joined
- 13 Aug 2010
- Posts
- 3,114
It wasn't the NHS that declared them fit for work it was our friends over at Atos.
These figures require formal review after all the victims were human beings and as such regardless of them claiming benefits their stories need to be heard
I dont think you understand the scale of the numbers of people we are talking about.
If you beleive the numbers from various outlets 100,000 people died between 2011 and 2015, while on benefits, irespective of being in the fit for work assesment process.
Whether these 2000 people would have likely died anyway or shortly afterwards regardless of being declared fit for work is what we need to assertain.
The very action of "being declared fit for work" hasnt killed them
The mortality rate for this group is broadly inline with the rest of the population (and decresing since the tories came in) when you factor in that the base line mortality rate is higher because this is a by their circumstances a sick, unfit, unwell portion of society.
Given the very facts they have asked for from what i can see in that FOI statement, is that the mortality rate among this sector of society is going down, not up.
- Joined
- 13 Aug 2010
- Posts
- 3,114
I'm not arguing the point you made but with the ever increasing war on people on benefits who in a majority of cases are poor and vulnerable, victims of governmental changes which puts those at the bottom further behind we just can't take a axe and start wiping them out.
I wasn't aware ATOS also decided who got treatment in hospitals and GP clinics?
Soldato
- Joined
- 8 Mar 2007
- Posts
- 10,938
Whilst there needs to be system where the general public have access to important date from public bodies, the current FOI system is broken and getting beyond a joke.
Take a few minutes and visit whatdotheyknow.com and browse some of the requests being made. Here are a couple of example....
* How much does the council spend on biscuits
Either someone whose desperate to find something extremely trivial to moan about with their mates or more likely a mis-use of the Act by a food supplier to try and gain inside information before making a contract bid
* Send me a detailed list of where every CCTV camera is and how they work in the city centre
FOI is great for anyone planning an armed robbery
* Can I keep quails on my allotment?
An example of the FOI system being used when a simple call to customer services would have sufficed.
FOI requests cost public bodies a lot of time and money and the vast majority of requests have nothing to do with uncovering corruption or even journalism. As I said just browse the website I posted above and count how many questions you feel are vital information for public consumption.
Isn't the point that they WERE declared fit for work in the first place? even if those people took their own lives as a result of the decision you still have to question why the testing procedure didn't pick up any mental health issues? a lot of people on disability benefits suffer from severe depression it would be easy to pass them as fit for work if you're a private company getting paid hansomly by the government for getting people off benefits.
Without knowing causes of death it's impossible to find any link but I'm willing to bet the number who died in unrelated accidents is extremely low, a normal healthy person wouldn't die under such circumstances.
Last edited: