The labour Leader thread...

[[TFU] Thegoon84]

ITT, the rich are evil and to blame for everything. Not the growing number of people who just expect handouts.

No. Are you actually saying that every rich person is illegally evading tax and they are to blame for everything? I think you are aren't you?

My uncle just sold his business for a few million,he worked hard, paid his staff a good wage.... i'm not talking about those top 10%, i'm talking about the blatent top earners.... But wait there, oh no they aren't on channel 5 "britains biggest tax cheats" so they defo are 100% squeeky clean!

I'm confident that most if not all of my tax has been correctly paid, the big corps and businesses employ people to legally avoid paying tax, ethically wrong... Or do i need to get my tin foil hat out to go with my bat **** crazy suggestions that the richest of us avoid paying their fair share?

Bore off.

 

[RoboCod]

My uncle just sold his business for a few million,he worked hard, paid his staff a good wage.... i'm not talking about those top 10%, i'm talking about the blatent top earners.... But wait there, oh no they aren't on channel 5 "britains biggest tax cheats" so they defo are 100% squeeky clean!

Great, your uncle has done well for himself, I'm glad for him and completely at a loss as to what that has to do with anything we are talking about. Did you just identify this as an opportunity to boast? What are you talking about? Are you sure you're 31?

I'm confident that most if not all of my tax has been correctly paid, the big corps and businesses employ people to legally avoid paying tax, ethically wrong... Or do i need to get my tin foil hat out to go with my bat **** crazy suggestions that the richest of us avoid paying their fair share?

Bore off.

Nope sorry, your conversation above was in reference to the top 3000 earners where you quite sensationally went on to generalise that "ZOMG DA RICH PEOPLE ALL AVOID TAX". We're not now going to lead the discussion on a tangent away from that about how the big evil corporations employ people 'legally' (?) to avoid paying tax, or about your shiny hat, because I'm not going to engage in an ongoing conversation of such absurdity.

You might have had some kind of coherent point somewhere, at some stage, but what it was and where it has gone is anyone's guess.

 

[Bluntwrapped]

Whatever you believe, you lot far left and them lot far right will always be a minority. The rest of the majority normal folk will just continue as usual. The only minor nuisance is sifting through the mountains of **** and nonsense you all spurt.

If you read back I said I find it frightening so many are duped by the media. Then I said I feel pity.. by this I meant I feel sorry for anyone who can't differentiate published fact from fiction, and have missed an important point. Politics, frustrated rants and moral grounds aside we're talking the fundamental level of human nature.. genuine compassion for others. What's our excuse in a modern day world for losing the plot.

I really don't appreciate being labelled a bigot for being frustrated and quite ****** by some of the nonsense I've read. Everyone should have an opinion but in relation to the above you have to draw the line somewhere. Why does everything have to be driven through negativity and fear to the point we appose others success and spitefully go out our way to stop it. In the process we open up the gate for everyone to get shafted. Seems like an odd way of running things to me.

As I said earlier total embarrassment to call ourselves a united kingdom.

 

[Scania]

I like Corbyn as a man, his different style and his principled (if misguided) positions.

The team he's appointing around him though just underlines to me why I or the voting public won't vote for him as a credible prime minister.

He's a figure from the past, dragged to the present because the best Labour had to offer couldn't put him down, which says more about them and their weakness than any of Corbyn's strengths.

He was added to the leadership contest to widen the debate, doing that has simply lengthened the period of Labour being in opposition.

PMQ's the other day was a classic example, ask party members for questions to the PM, no test of Corbyn and hardly difficult for Cameron to counter.

He needs to up his game and quickly, alas though, it's fairly plain to see he's wholly out of his depth, this position for a leader of the opposition is not good for them or the country as a whole IMO.

Milliband was by far a better statesman and he was resoundingly rejected and rightly so, I think the future for Labour is looking bleak.

 

[balky12]

The Tory brown nosers should ask themselves 'how did the top 3000 make their fortunes?' The money didn't come out of thin air. People like you and me work for these mega rich earners and get paid peanuts while they syphon off the bulk of the profits for themselves.

Collectively the money is earned but the guys at the top take 90% of the profit while the rest of the actual people who helped them earn it get a tiny wage in comparison. A fairer system would give a greater share to the workers.

Wow. I don't know where to begin.

A lot of the time someone has started a company from scratch. Built the company. Over years, slowly growing ad business and making it, then keeping it profitable.

Your complaining that CEO's take most of the money? ( which they don't if you added up every employers salary). Well they kind of deserve it.

The attitude you have won't get you very far in life. Yes your a cog in a machine. Yes you help the company make money. You don't however deserve a salary anywhere the CEO. If you did you would be paid it. People who make money for companies are looked after. At least in my sector they are. Your typical support staff, admins? Mot so much. Plus they are 10 a penny.

 

[[TFU] Thegoon84]

Great, your uncle has done well for himself, I'm glad for him and completely at a loss as to what that has to do with anything we are talking about. Did you just identify this as an opportunity to boast? What are you talking about? Are you sure you're 31?



Nope sorry, your conversation above was in reference to the top 3000 earners where you quite sensationally went on to generalise that "ZOMG DA RICH PEOPLE ALL AVOID TAX". We're not now going to lead the discussion on a tangent away from that about how the big evil corporations employ people 'legally' (?) to avoid paying tax, or about your shiny hat, because I'm not going to engage in an ongoing conversation of such absurdity.

You might have had some kind of coherent point somewhere, at some stage, but what it was and where it has gone is anyone's guess.

My point was to try and show i'm not a hater of the rich, people who work hard and risk everything should be entitled to enjoy what they've earnt... But my dribble was more toward the higher %, dare i say it... Elite, ZOMG tin foil hat alert tin foil har wooohoohooooooooo.... Anyways, but those who setup shop, take money earned in Britain, then distribute that around the world to avoid tax..... My point and my firm standing point is that multi-national corps "Murica" set up shop, of which is our own fault for not support local produce and divert profit across the pond and to where ever else... This, i think needs more attention than a pointless and petty purge on a budget within a government, of which has little to no significance in the grand scheme of things, i.e welfare... Without even going into our nation security of 22,000 less police officers, huge cuts in the army and already quantive easying going on under a tory government..

Your almighty savior and god himself Mr ham face **** even said, "Amazon while keeping within the law should hold a moral duty to pay fair tax"... That isn't a direct quote but a summary!

Robocop, i admire your passion and clearly deep understanding of politics, but can we please, at least agree, we should be more focused on the complete transparent of corporations like Amazon, Google, facebook, Walmart, certain banks and god knows who else... Because they alone hold the key to a "fair and equal society".

Sorry for the rubbish Grammar, i was never blessed with intelligence only brought up to care about those less fortunate! Must be a Welsh curse that and wanting to spread flem over everyone with the LL (th's) of my native and first langage.

 

[aslco]

Wow. I don't know where to begin.

A lot of the time someone has started a company from scratch. Built the company. Over years, slowly growing ad business and making it, then keeping it profitable.

Your complaining that CEO's take most of the money? ( which they don't if you added up every employers salary). Well they kind of deserve it.

The attitude you have won't get you very far in life. Yes your a cog in a machine. Yes you help the company make money. You don't however deserve a salary anywhere the CEO. If you did you would be paid it. People who make money for companies are looked after. At least in my sector they are. Your typical support staff, admins? Mot so much. Plus they are 10 a penny.

There's a lot of good people out there with good companies who work damn hard for what they do and they deserve their riches, but in the words of Elizabeth Warren:

“There is nobody in this country who got rich on their own. Nobody. You built a factory out there - good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory... Now look. You built a factory and it turned into something terrific or a great idea - God bless! Keep a hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.”

You're right that there has to be differentiation between wealth creators and support staff, but just imagine how much humanity could progressive if more and more people were given chance to progress. People need either time or money to progress, usually both, but if we can up their wages to give them more money, or to then enable a reducing of worked hours to aid progression, do you not see how that could escalate for the better over time?

People complain that an incentive must exist, but that is clearly not the issue, give 90% of people in this country more time or money, and they'll produce something positive with it.

Edit: I should clarify this, by "progress" i mean do what THEY WANT TO DO. Even if someone enjoys their job and gets promotions time to time, it's rarely enough for them to truly progress to the best of their ability to help humanity. If they're private sector employed then a lot of the time they're merely existing to generate falsified credit.

 

[jl10000]

Everyone can afford to educate themselves surely - education is free to the age of 18 and university is only paid back if and when you get job after.

How accessible is Eton? or Oxbridge universities? Token peasants don't count. The people who go through that education system dominate this country in many ways. Its a shame that the education system for the great unwashed is so poor and fails so many, the people who understand this early enough tend to make the most of whatever intelligence they have and earn decent money; good for them.

 

[Tefal]

How accessible is Eton? or Oxbridge universities? Token peasants don't count. The people who go through that education system dominate this country in many ways. Its a shame that the education system for the great unwashed is so poor and fails so many, the people who understand this early enough tend to make the most of whatever intelligence they have and earn decent money; good for them.

Unless there's a tradition of popping in an envolope filled with cash along with your entrance exam just as accessible really

 

[Caged]

I'm not so sure to be honest. Certainly Oxford and Cambridge from what I can remember from the people I knew who went through it a decade+ ago, they really are after exceptional students. This doesn't just mean academically bright though, they are looking for outside interests as well - success in sports and/or music, potentially a long list of work experience or volunteering positions etc. Basically think of the things that parents of kids at private schools pour money into, or the work experience that only happens if someone's dad knows someone else's dad who happens to work in a financial institution in the City, and that's ticking a list nicely.

It may have changed since then of course, and I believe that those sorts of universities are definitely trying to attract students from less advantaged backgrounds (whether this is because they are being told to or because they genuinely want to give people a break is up to you to decide), but kids from poorer backgrounds seem to have a harder time getting on in life than some genuinely thick people born with a silver spoon, regardless of academic potential. Getting into the position to even be able to take A/AS-Levels in the subjects that Oxford / Cambridge like to see might be an uphill battle by itself, before you get onto the increasing numbers going for 4 A-Levels to try and stand out. I can't imagine state schools have the resources to be able to support that ambition.

 

[DIABLO]

If you read back I said I find it frightening so many are duped by the media. Then I said I feel pity.. by this I meant I feel sorry for anyone who can't differentiate published fact from fiction, and have missed an important point. Politics, frustrated rants and moral grounds aside we're talking the fundamental level of human nature.. genuine compassion for others. What's our excuse in a modern day world for losing the plot.

I really don't appreciate being labelled a bigot for being frustrated and quite ****** by some of the nonsense I've read. Everyone should have an opinion but in relation to the above you have to draw the line somewhere. Why does everything have to be driven through negativity and fear to the point we appose others success and spitefully go out our way to stop it. In the process we open up the gate for everyone to get shafted. Seems like an odd way of running things to me.

As I said earlier total embarrassment to call ourselves a united kingdom.

What a simplistic naive view of the world you have. Maybe we should all walk around hugging each other.

 

[[TW]Fox]

How accessible is Eton? or Oxbridge universities? Token peasants don't count. The people who go through that education system dominate this country in many ways. Its a shame that the education system for the great unwashed is so poor and fails so many, the people who understand this early enough tend to make the most of whatever intelligence they have and earn decent money; good for them.

The vast majority of happy successful people in the UK did not attend Eton.

 

[atpbx]

The view that you have to go to university to earn a decent living is the most absurd view here.

Admittedly you are not going to be a doctor or pilot if you finish your education with just GCSES or like me, nothing what so ever but neither are 99.9% of university graduates either.

Having no qualifications, or even worse "being poor" are no excuse for not getting on in life.

 

[Dolph]

The Lib Dems need to be much more willing to walk away and fight for the manifesto they stood on rather than on the points that their key negotiators cared about. They needed to either have a much more Lib Dem coalition or some kind of less tight arrangement where they clearly negotiated on every vote. They needed to show the public they were getting something good back from every compromise. They failed on all counts.

What do you think would have happened if the Tories hadn't been able to govern and called another election?

Owning it would have been worthless to the Lib Dems. The people who were happy with the last government were mostly Tory voters; they needed the support of their voters and potential swing voters. As it stood, they alienated a full two thirds of their voters and did nothing to convince swing voters that they were worth voting for or, indeed, could be trusted on anything.

2010 was a difficult situation for them but Clegg was very much the worst possible leader for the occasion. He was much too far from the party's heart and much too willing to throw the manifesto under the bus for his sniff at power. He was also deeply tactically inept.

Most of the seats the lib dems lost went to the Tories, including pretty much the whole of the southwest. Labour never stands a chance down here outside of the cities, and the lib dem voters defected to labour and the Tories in equal measure. Look at Yeovil as an example.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/constituencies/E14001060

The lib dems didn't lose this seat because of the swing to labour, they lost it due to the swing to the Tories. This pattern was repeated across the lib dem heartlands.

If they had stood by the coalition with a position that their preference was continuation rather than siding with labour and the SNP, a wipeout was far less likely. (For another example, see Sheffield hallam, where the campaign was more about ensuring continuity remained possible).

The myth that the lib dems voters are really just lost labour voters is a damaging fallacy.

 

[Aldav]

The view that you have to go to university to earn a decent living is the most absurd view here.

Admittedly you are not going to be a doctor or pilot if you finish your education with just GCSES or like me, nothing what so ever but neither are 99.9% of university graduates either.

Having no qualifications, or even worse "being poor" are no excuse for not getting on in life.

Spot on. A degree is the only route to some careers, and virtually the only route to others, but there are plenty of ways to be successful without one.

 

[JohnnyG]

The view that you have to go to university to earn a decent living is the most absurd view here.

Admittedly you are not going to be a doctor or pilot if you finish your education with just GCSES or like me, nothing what so ever but neither are 99.9% of university graduates either.

Having no qualifications, or even worse "being poor" are no excuse for not getting on in life.

Quite true, I have 2 small businesses that do quite well and left school with an O level in maths, PE and woodwork or something equally pointless.

ps. Evil Tories etc...

 

[Hagar]

The view that you have to go to university to earn a decent living is the most absurd view here.

Admittedly you are not going to be a doctor or pilot if you finish your education with just GCSES or like me, nothing what so ever but neither are 99.9% of university graduates either.

Having no qualifications, or even worse "being poor" are no excuse for not getting on in life.

I failed early on. After a private education and 7 O levels, I left there and went to college for A levels and did not get a single one.

So after several false starts, I started work on a construction site as a chain lad (£25pw in 1974). I went on to do day release and evening classes and got an ONC in Construction from Wigan Mining and Technical College. I have progressed to a senior design engineer position, gained I Eng. AMICE, irrespective of a university education. I earn less than peers my age with a university education but still ~£50k.

Labour has never really changed, Jeremy Corbyn is the reality of the Labour party, it has had a couple of decades denying its origins and values but now reverts to type. I expect a rift and 'new labour' dividing off imminently.

 

[jsmoke]

I failed early on. After a private education and 7 O levels, I left there and went to college for A levels and did not get a single one.

So after several false starts, I started work on a construction site as a chain lad (£25pw in 1974). I went on to do day release and evening classes and got an ONC in Construction from Wigan Mining and Technical College. I have progressed to a senior design engineer position, gained I Eng. AMICE, irrespective of a university education. I earn less than peers my age with a university education but still ~£50k.

Labour has never really changed, Jeremy Corbyn is the reality of the Labour party, it has had a couple of decades denying its origins and values but now reverts to type. I expect a rift and 'new labour' dividing off imminently.

Out of interest, why didn't you get any A-levels, lack of study, confidence, bad teachings....

 

[Hagar]

Out of interest, why didn't you get any A-levels, lack of study, confidence, bad teachings....

It was in the early seventies

After seven years or so in a fairly restrictive boarding school, I discovered good music, beer, bad women and motorcycles.

My fault entirely.

 

[Bluntwrapped]

What a simplistic naive view of the world you have. Maybe we should all walk around hugging each other.

**Removed, there's no need for insults**