Are degrees necessary these days?

Laurie said:
SIR RICHARD BRANSON - High School Dropout.

MICHAEL DELL - Uni Dropout.

RALPH LAUREN - College Dropout.

DOV CHARNEY - Uni Dropout.

Amadeo Peter Giannini, multimillionaire founder of Bank of America. - High School Dropout.

The list goes on...
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Cool, I'll tell everyone they need to drop out of school if they want to succeed. Your logic is infallible.

How about you check the CEOs of every FTSE100 company and see how many don't have degrees.

Just because out of the many, many dropouts, you have found the few who were entrepreneurial enough to start a business which succeeded, doesn't make dropping out a good idea.

The average is what matters and the average graduate salary is higher. The average salary from better universities is higher still. It is massive advantage when starting a career. Without a degree the probability of succeeding is very low in many industries (not zero, but unlikey).

Also comparing what the environment was like 20 years ago to today is also wrong.
 
Never needed to use my degree in any of my jobs throughout my career.

However would never have got my first role without having my degree, even if it was one for chumps ;)

First employer was one of those 'you must have a degree, doesn't matter what subject though'

Never been of any importance since that first role.
 
Back in the day, I did a couple of years at Uni (Computer Science) and then dropped out because my dad died and I needed to help the family with income. Before Uni I went to College and got a BTEC ND in computer studies, it was the stepping stone from school to Uni, at least at the time.

Fast forward almost 15 years, where I started at the bottom (IT Assistant) and now I head up the team. I have interviewed countless people over the past 7~8 years and the ones without degrees are more hungry, more willing.

Obviously this is in IT, I'm sure other fields are completely different.

Incidentally, my assistant who is 3 years younger than me has a Masters degree, and he will openly acknowledge that whilst on paper, in terms of qualifications, he'd bury me, when it comes to experience, actual technical skill, and making decisions, I'd bury him.

These days, in 'BAU' IT at least, a degree doesn't mean much. The only caveat to that is if you're going into a extremely specialised area of IT.
 
If you want to go into the "highly specialised areas of IT" a degree won't help you. We've got storage experts with tons of years of experience who know systems like HP 3Par inside out. If you want to go work in a datacentre with that sort of specialisation, it's all about what courses you've been on and how much experience you have. Degrees just don't come into it as you won't learn how to build and maintain a HP 3Par array doing a Computer Science degree.

Even if you switch to the darkside and look at software development, its all about what skills you have, what languages you know, what methodology you know and how long you've been using it. A degree is a great way to pick up an introductory role in this area, but once you're up and running the degree becomes largely irrelevant. Similar story with database administration and SQL / Oracle. Qualifications and experience trumps degrees.
 
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Again, it depends. A friend has absolutely needed degree +(Actual PhD) to get into advanced robotics and artificial intelligence areas.
 
Op my thoughts are - we don't live in Canada. And if I had a magic wand and could wave it what 3 things would you be?

Before UNI (o-levels and a-levels) you youngsters need to build your cv for your 'personal statement' - Duke of E, climb stuff and do voluntary services - build an interstellar rocket and so on.

For your degree I recommend something you are interested in
Getting a first - there is no point going
Captaining the overclicking team, rowing, drinking team......

What a degree does is demonstrate that you can be Pro at something, master something in 3 or however many years.

Plus employees are looking for someone who is 1. nice to have around and 2. a task completer - you don't fcuk things up and finish what you started.

Be memorable, for example in 1992 I survived hurricane Andrew in Florida. Never forget jpod's advice, ever.
 
Sound advice. Where so many people get it wrong is they feel a qualification in a given area means they are good to go. For employers it shows an aptitude to learn and persist, not much more. When you are young (in your early 20's) you have little experience to call upon so the only measure employers have is what you have to show so far. That is why to someone in their 20's a degree has value where as someone in their 30's less so and in their 40's, outside of the odd role, none.
 
muon said:
Cool, I'll tell everyone they need to drop out of school if they want to succeed. Your logic is infallible.

How about you check the CEOs of every FTSE100 company and see how many don't have degrees.

Just because out of the many, many dropouts, you have found the few who were entrepreneurial enough to start a business which succeeded, doesn't make dropping out a good idea.

The average is what matters and the average graduate salary is higher. The average salary from better universities is higher still. It is massive advantage when starting a career. Without a degree the probability of succeeding is very low in many industries (not zero, but unlikey).

Also comparing what the environment was like 20 years ago to today is also wrong.
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You seem to associate a degree as the route of their success. It isn't, their ability to learn and apply learning is the key and do you know what, people who are good at that often go to university. Several CEO's also continue or even begin to educate during their careers. I know of some who left school and went to work, but now have MBA's. How many CEO's came through the private school system, were lucky to have that pathway to success opened to them due to preordained relationships. Your argument has merits, but is to simplistic. Their degree is not the route of their success, more often it is something they got along the way in my experience.

Also how do you measure success? Is it working in a senior role with a big company, which some people around here seem to think is what it's all about? Some even seem to promote the fact they work for a big company as something special, which amuses me. I say that as someone who works for a Fortune 500 company too. Success for me is contempment, for someone else it's money, for others it's title, responsibility, things, associations etc. Yes people with degrees tend to do better, but that's because they are often brighter. More people go to uni these days than when i was young too. Simply getting a degree is just the start, it doesn't mean your better, it just means it's easier to start where you want and develop but don't be foolish enough to think it makes you a shoe in to be a superstar
 
Amp34 said:
Sure?

Think it depends on the uni and course.

As an example on my undergrad course if you didn't do the accredited course then you didn't get an honours degree.

In our case you could get the same number of credits and the same percentage but if you did a lab based dissertation rather than fieldwork based you didn't get the (Hons). To be fully accredited you needed to have done a certain minimum amount of weeks in the field and done a field based dissertation. As far as I know that was a firm requirement for all the courses at all the universities accredited by that institution.
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I was going by what I had been told at my Uni (Sunderland), plus the explanation on wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_undergraduate_degree_classification#Ordinary_degree

Having also now found this link this morning:
https://www.dur.ac.uk/faculty.handbook/faqs/?faqno=548

It suggestions that whilst it is 360 credits for a Honours degree and 300 credits for an ordinary degree, at least 60 credits have to be at Level 3.
So could be possible that in your example the accredited fieldwork was level 3, whereas lab work wasn't - so looks like there are a few more requirements (and indeed which could be Uni/Course specific)
 
Housey said:
You seem to associate a degree as the route of their success. It isn't, their ability to learn and apply learning is the key and do you know what, people who are good at that often go to university. Several CEO's also continue or even begin to educate during their careers. I know of some who left school and went to work, but now have MBA's. How many CEO's came through the private school system, were lucky to have that pathway to success opened to them due to preordained relationships. Your argument has merits, but is to simplistic. Their degree is not the route of their success, more often it is something they got along the way in my experience.

Also how do you measure success? Is it working in a senior role with a big company, which some people around here seem to think is what it's all about? Some even seem to promote the fact they work for a big company as something special, which amuses me. I say that as someone who works for a Fortune 500 company too. Success for me is contempment, for someone else it's money, for others it's title, responsibility, things, associations etc. Yes people with degrees tend to do better, but that's because they are often brighter. More people go to uni these days than when i was young too. Simply getting a degree is just the start, it doesn't mean your better, it just means it's easier to start where you want and develop but don't be foolish enough to think it makes you a shoe in to be a superstar
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All well and good but the statistic is valid. I don't think anyone is saying the success is due to the degree but having it contributed. Unfortunately some opportunities are only open to degree holders - foot in the door, check in the box.

After that it is your own skill/ability that gets you further.
 
OracIe said:
Again, it depends. A friend has absolutely needed degree +(Actual PhD) to get into advanced robotics and artificial intelligence areas.
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Totally agreed. I've got a post a few pages back saying just this. How many doctors do you see on the Hospital Wards without degrees again ?

There are certain careers that need them. IT isn't one of them, although they can help you get that first job and rung on the ladder.
 
probably if you are looking for a job in the system. if you want to go your own route and make real money then no. with the internet being able to teach you everything you need you don't need to go to sit in some class and be told what to learn. you can choose it yourself at home, and if you are driven you'll learn much more. many people think that learning stops when uni ends. and then they end up in some 9-5.
 
fendi said:
probably if you are looking for a job in the system. if you want to go your own route and make real money then no. with the internet being able to teach you everything you need you don't need to go to sit in some class and be told what to learn. you can choose it yourself at home, and if you are driven you'll learn much more. many people think that learning stops when uni ends. and then they end up in some 9-5.
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Very true - I'm one of those that got a degree and am in the system but I would like to go off and do my own thing. Absolutely correct that it isn't needed if you have the vision and ability to do your own thing early in your career. Others like myself it is a good base to get me a job while I learn and figure out what I can do on my own.
 
Jae-So said:
Very true - I'm one of those that got a degree and am in the system but I would like to go off and do my own thing. Absolutely correct that it isn't needed if you have the vision and ability to do your own thing early in your career. Others like myself it is a good base to get me a job while I learn and figure out what I can do on my own.
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on the flip side.

you could have got a job instead of uni, earned £££ whilst thinking what you want to do as your own thing, not got into debt and learned a lot more and saved which would help when starting out on your own. if you had dedicated 3 or 4 years into learning something specific daily it's hard to fail at it. and i mean get really dedicated and want to learn it as a passion daily. getting up at 8am. going your own route is much harder than uni and then a job. but you could retire @ 35 if you get it right and start young.

i've got a degree not that it matters. my nephew is just about to start uni and he doesn't know what he wants to do afterwards. sounds like a waste of time but he'll have a nice piece of paper to show people at the end of it. he'll get to slay some chicks. so not a complete waste of time.
 
The degree result and awarding institution allow potential employers to identify the best of those who went to university. Anyone comparing a CV with degree to a non-degree CV needs to be very careful. An apprenticeship-trained person who pursues their work in their hobby could easily be more useful than a degree-holder with no experience.
 
Jae-So said:
All well and good but the statistic is valid. I don't think anyone is saying the success is due to the degree but having it contributed. Unfortunately some opportunities are only open to degree holders - foot in the door, check in the box.

After that it is your own skill/ability that gets you further.
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But that is my exact point!

They are not just open to degree owners it is a phalacy. A degree opens more doors early in your career. It has zero impact on your ability to become a CEO. The metric presented is not a proof point of this fact.
 
I don't think my degree has helped me in my career. I took a non-graduate position after uni and worked my way up. I'd probably be further up the ladder by now (or at least hit my current position earlier) had I left education at 18.
 
fendi said:
on the flip side.

you could have got a job instead of uni, earned £££ whilst thinking what you want to do as your own thing, not got into debt and learned a lot more and saved which would help when starting out on your own. if you had dedicated 3 or 4 years into learning something specific daily it's hard to fail at it. and i mean get really dedicated and want to learn it as a passion daily. getting up at 8am. going your own route is much harder than uni and then a job. but you could retire @ 35 if you get it right and start young.

i've got a degree not that it matters. my nephew is just about to start uni and he doesn't know what he wants to do afterwards. sounds like a waste of time but he'll have a nice piece of paper to show people at the end of it. he'll get to slay some chicks. so not a complete waste of time.
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True true - arguably I could have wasted my time. Swings and roundabouts, it turns out my degree has been useful to me so far. Doesn't hurt to have a qualification that is a very decent backup.

Housey said:
But that is my exact point!

They are not just open to degree owners it is a phalacy. A degree opens more doors early in your career. It has zero impact on your ability to become a CEO. The metric presented is not a proof point of this fact.
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Very true, but how do you get the first job on the way there? Typically a degree is needed. I have no doubt that many without a degree could do many of the jobs that require one. The reality is, it is more difficult to get the role in the first place so I got one.

Saying that I would probably tell my future kids to do a technical apprenticeship and get the quals while working and figuring out what they really wanna do.
 
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