The Gender Pay Gap Is Dead

[alx]

That argument cuts both ways though.

Why don't more men become nurses? Because it is seen as a female dominated profession that is unfriendly to men. If you want equality you have to have true equality and that means professions that favour women need to start showing some love to men and professions that favour men need to start showing some love to women.

This is why I hate the term feminism and instead prefer egalitarianism instead. It is a much more appropriate word to use.

Positive discrimination is not the answer though!

Completely agree on all your points - although I'd argue men don't become nurses because it's seen as too 'girly' and the associated peer pressure rather than being unfriendly to them. There's an awful lot of stereotyping and cultural expectations that start at a young age that don't help.

Unless this changes you'll continue to see certain jobs heavily skewed to certain genders for no real reason.

 

[FoxEye]

Well, speaking of having cake and eating it...Do you want more immigration, or more incentives for people to have children?

Well, about that, it's unfortunate that we're so obsessed with growth, growth, growth, to keep investors happy, and reduce debt.

All slightly decreasing human population would be a good thing for everyone. There's finite space, and conditions aren't improved by packing more of us in.

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/11031/uk-economy/impact-of-rising-population-in-the-uk/

As usual, the people who benefit most from rising population are those at the top.

We just need a new plan that doesn't have at its centre endless, unlimited economic growth.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

Well, about that, it's unfortunate that we're so obsessed with growth, growth, growth, to keep investors happy, and reduce debt.

All slightly decreasing human population would be a good thing for everyone. There's finite space, and conditions aren't improved by packing more of us in.

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/11031/uk-economy/impact-of-rising-population-in-the-uk/

As usual, the people who benefit most from rising population are those at the top.

We just need a new plan that doesn't have at its centre endless, unlimited economic growth.

For context for those who may have missed it, would you mind linking us to your previous posts where you have advocated genocide?

Thanks!

 

[FoxEye]

For context for those who may have missed it, would you mind linking us to your previous posts where you have advocated genocide?

As a general point, I believe this planet would be better off without humans on it at all.

But that's off topic really.

Attack the argument, as they say, not the man. Or just carry on how you always do. I believe soon after you will be mentioning my (perceived) sexual deviancy, like you normally do to discredit something I've said.

Oh well, it's GD after all. Carry on then. You could mention my racism, xenophobia, trans-phobia, the fact that I'm overweight.. take your pick, Mag! It's all really compelling stuff.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

Presuming Youtube comments can be trusted for a minute, one of the top comments is very interesting...



If any of those things were reversed, you'd see countless Guardian CIF articles and feminist blogs about them and how the prove the xistsence of the patriarchy.

The alimony one.

Top kek lads, top kek.

 

[Nix]

As a general point, I believe this planet would be better off without humans on it at all.

But that's off topic really.

Attack the argument, as they say, not the man. Or just carry on how you always do. I believe soon after you will be mentioning my (perceived) sexual deviancy, like you normally do to discredit something I've said.

Oh well, it's GD after all. Carry on then. You could mention my racism, xenophobia, trans-phobia, the fact that I'm overweight.. take your pick, Mag! It's all really compelling stuff.

Stop the bickering and stay on topic.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Best to read the full article it's not very long ...

The existence of a gender pay gap, and the implication of rampant discrimination, must be one of the most promulgated myths expounded by the mass media including the BBC. It's about time the facts started to be reported rather than pandering to pressure groups.

The gender pay gap exists, depending on how you define "gender pay gap".

This is a brilliant summary in podcast version. There is also a full transcript for those who don't want to listen.

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the...der-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

 

[Nix]

The gender pay gap exists, depending on how you define "gender pay gap".

And therein lies the problem. Third wave feminists love to twist its meaning to suit their destructive agenda.

Recent ONS figures actually showed women on average earn more than men up until their 30s now.

The whole 77c to a $1 thing is bunkum.

Glassdoor emailed a report today: https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/blog/ge...ncovers-employee-sentiments-perceptions-glob/

I found this interesting:

Also of note – the survey queried respondents on what would help improve the gender pay gap, and nearly a third of UK employees who say there is a gender pay gap believe new company policies around pay and compensation will help close the imbalance, while 41% are looking to the government for legislation requiring employers to pay all people equally for equal work and experience levels.

I'm not sure what these people are expecting? Legislation is already in place. This makes me wonder if these people are simply knee-jerking on a topic they don't actually know much about.

https://www.unison.org.uk/get-help/knowledge/pay/equal-pay/

If you are not being paid equally, your employer is breaking the law.

There is a long-term gap for earnings between the genders but this is due to career choice and personal circumstances such as child rearing. There is no gap in wages as that is illegal.

 

[Freddie1980]

I wonder how these league tables are going to work and how can we trust that there going to give a true and fair view of the workplace? How you account for experience, individual ability, productivity, maternity leave, local demand etc? I can see the first table causing a lot of arguments and upset.

 

[Nix]

I wonder how these league tables are going to work and how can we trust that there going to give a true and fair view of the workplace? How you account for experience, individual ability, productivity, maternity leave, local demand etc? I can see the first table causing a lot of arguments and upset.

This is why the banding system exists.

 

[Burnsy2023]

There is a long-term gap for earnings between the genders but this is due to career choice and personal circumstances such as child rearing. There is no gap in wages as that is illegal.

The problem is that many of the choices aren't totally free choices. Children need to be brought up, elder people need to be looked after - that's not a problem for women, that's a problem for society.

To quote my link above:

Goldin and Katz would both show up in the Census data as post-secondary teachers. And in this case, the female teacher earns a few dollars more than her male counterpart. But what if Goldin had decided some years back to find somewhere less-demanding to work than at Harvard? Maybe she needed to care for some family members; maybe she wanted to study opera singing on the side. Whatever. So perhaps she opted out of the Ivy League tenure track for a different teaching job that didn’t pay as much.

Well, if that were the case, she and Larry Katz would still both show up in the Census data as post-secondary teachers — but now the female worker is earning a lot less than the male counterpart. You multiply that story by a few million and you have a huge pay gap between men and women.

In some ways it’s a self-inflicted wound — women make choices that lead to smaller monetary returns. On the other hand, society is set up in such a way that those choices are often not really very optional. So, what’s to be done about it?

 

[Schlong&Stable]

Well, speaking of having cake and eating it...Do you want more immigration, or more incentives for people to have children?

More support for British people to have kids. Child care in particular.

 

[Nix]

I find that line of argument extremely tenuous.

Where is the sympathy for people who've had to make hard decisions for anything else in life?

You could have mental health concerns or a disability, your partner could get a job opportunity that requires you to relocate and take a lesser paid job. Factors such as income, class, health, family life, education can all affect a person's locus of control.

There are myriad of reasons why personal circumstance can affect people's choices.

These are not free choices either. You have to ask yourself, how much in life really is a free choice? There are always pros and cons.

Why are women the only victims here? This is a toxic and tired narrative. This is not a problem that only women face.

For example, unlike the bogus feminist claim that 1 in 4 women experience rape, a genuine and troubling statistic is that 1 in 4 people in the UK will experience some form of mental health problem during their lifetime. Where are the advocates for people with mental health problems?

 

[stewski]

Well, it's a free choice whether that falls to the man or the woman in the relationship (or which man, or which woman, etc). Men and women can now share the maternity/paternity leave. Previously, not so much... but now it's as free a choice as it's going to be...

Has anyone got any info on how widespread allowance for sharing parental leave actually is, in practice I haven't seen this offered.

 

[ICDP]

The gender pay gap does exist but it is not usually by direct discrimination, it is a cultural issue.

When a couple have a child it is the woman who goes on long term leave or even goes part time. While I accept the early formative months of a baby are important (ie breast feeding) this argument loses validity as the months turn in to years.

Being part time seriously impacts your gross earing as well as your career prospects so this culturally accepted norm was creating scenarios where most women became marginalised in the workplace. No promotions, stuck at part time hours until the kids went to school or even well into the kids teens.

It is seen as the cultural norm among many that "it's a woman's job" looking after the kids and or family home. This is not just men who think this but even women accept it as culturally normal. There is currently a drive within public and some private sectors to change this perception so that men will be more likely to share the burden. For example when my three year old son was born the place I work for had a policy that the women could take up to 12 months maternity leave (only 6 months paid for) yet the male could only take 3 weeks. This policy was inadvertently biased for obvious reasons. In the last year our new policy states both parents can share a total of 12 months leave in any ratio between both parents. So there is nothing to stop a man and woman taking 6 months leave each to look after the kids.

It's funny reading the entitled males in this thread getting all indignant and defensive while being ignorant of the facts. It even more troubling to see self righteous ******** going totally OT by bringing up bogus rape statistic claims to prove women are liars and can't be trusted. As if this somehow proves the gender pay gap is a lie.

 

[dowie]

For example, where are the advocates for people with mental health problems?

yup... tbh.. there isn't necessarily anything to fix per say - 1 in 4 people each year will suffer from mental health issues and it certainly could affect your work/ability to earn

that isn't something that people should necessarily be compensated for artificially any more than females who want flexibility, time off etc...

obviously people shouldn't be discriminated against in terms of hiring because they're female or have suffered mental health issues - but if the side effect of that is that you need more time off or more flexibility in your hours or your performance suffers as a reuslt of having kids or having a condition then pay is often going to be affected

 

[Nix]

snip

The difference between maternity and paternity opportunities is something that absolutely needs addressing and I'm astounded that it's still a thing.

It's funny reading the entitled males in this thread getting all indignant and defensive while being ignorant of the facts. It even more troubling to see self righteous ******** going totally OT by bringing up bogus rape statistic claims to prove women are liars and can't be trusted. As if this somehow proves the gender pay gap is a lie.

The 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 claim that feminists peddle absolutely is bogus. It's more like 1 in 50, which is still tragically high but nowhere near the 25% they claim.

1 in 4 people experiencing mental health issues in their lifetime is a far more real and pressing issue.

 

[Tunney]

Has anyone got any info on how widespread allowance for sharing parental leave actually is, in practice I haven't seen this offered.

The new rules for shared parental leave only came in last May. Companies are legally obliged to offer it.

I became a dad in December and I'm planning to take three months of shared parental leave later this year. The HR department of my company was well aware of new rules but said that I was the first soon-to-be-father to express an interest in taking it. Since then, several other fathers have opted to take it so it looks like shared parental leave will be quite popular.

As you can imagine, I think that shared parental leave is a great idea. It's never going to completely address the gender pay gap caused by parenthood - most mothers will still want to breastfeed and that's a lot more difficult if they go back to work early - but it's a good first step.

 

[stewski]

The new rules for shared parental leave only came in last May. Companies are legally obliged to offer it.

I became a dad in December and I'm planning to take three months of shared parental leave later this year. The HR department of my company was well aware of new rules but said that I was the first soon-to-be-father to express an interest in taking it. Since then, several other fathers have opted to take it so it looks like shared parental leave will be quite popular.

Great stuff thanks, new rules that I actually agree with...

 

[Nix]

The new rules for shared parental leave only came in last May. Companies are legally obliged to offer it.

Whilst it is a good thing that this has finally been brought into legislation, it will only really benefit new families as any mothers who've been out of work due to the old maternity rules will have likely fallen behind the earnings of the father at this point.