Two explosions at Brussels airport

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mjt said:
They were radicalised because they were low-life thugs, marginalised by society and bad politics.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35890960

They were not radicalised because Brussels is full of Muslims. A large Muslim population and terrorists are not mutually exclusive.
Unfortunately, most of the people in this thread are anti-Islamic xenophobes and this is a waste of time.
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yet we don't see African Americans in Detroit and Baltimore blowing themselves up....

oh its Western foreign policy

oh its because they're marginalised

********, it's because they follow a messed up ideology - those other factors can act as catalysts, sure, but they're not the root cause. The root cause is fundamentalist Islam and trying to blame other factors is just sticking your head in the sand.
 
mjt said:
The Belgian security forces can't keep up. One of the terrorists was using 20 phones alone, and each phone required 20-25 agents to keep track of everything. There's nowhere near enough manpower in Belgium.
Add to that the mess of the local government, and there's no way they could track anyone.
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Take the Indonesian approach, 'arrest' them, might be botched, all suspects might be shot.
No need to track any phones.
 
Moses said:
It was a choice, but can't you see how choices for people living in sink estates with no hope and purpose are limited, and how their circumstances can used to manipulate/take advantage of them, leading them down the path of radicalisation? That's not apologising for terrorists, or saying it's not their fault... it's just understanding some of the reasons behind why people are radicalised and choose terrorism... and understanding that is part of the solution.
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Yet is the most horrific circumstances, it transcends way beyond the criminal path others take.

A Belgian woman on the news just said that lots of the Muslims on Molenbeek feel disenfranchised becasue they don't speak the language. Who's fault is that?
 
Moses said:
It was a choice, but can't you see how choices for people living in sink estates with no hope and purpose are limited, and how their circumstances can used to manipulate/take advantage of them, leading them down the path of radicalisation? That's not apologising for terrorists, or saying it's not their fault... it's just understanding some of the reasons behind why people are radicalised and choose terrorism... and understanding that is part of the solution.
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No.

I am responsible for my path in life, and the decisions i made. I don't blame society because my life hasn't panned out into some utopian dream. I could have done a lot more, looking back, but do i blame anyone else but myself - No

Moses said:
and choose terrorism
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You have just said it, it is a choice that the individual makes, and that brings consequences, reflecting on family and religion ( as they chose to die/kill others in the name of Islam )
 
mjt said:
But they're being marginalised by society and politics in other European countries too!
Paris - they stuck all the north African immigrants in the suburbs from the 1960s onwards and look what happened a few years with the riots. Although that's been happening for years.

It's bad politics, not the faith.
What's happening is a bunch of ***** interpreting Islam in an extremist fashion and radicalising disenfranchised youth.
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I disagree. Islam as a faith has a problem of violence, it is endemic in the belief system. What is required in Islam is reformation. By excusing Islam and placing responsibilty elsewhere you are effectively preventing that reformation and allowing the extremists to dominate the conversation. Some people only blame society and politics so they don't have to admit that Islam has a violence problem. This is the root, this is what needs to be addressed. Pacification does not work in this case.
 
mjt said:
But they're being marginalised by society and politics in other European countries too!
Paris - they stuck all the north African immigrants in the suburbs from the 1960s onwards and look what happened a few years with the riots. Although that's been happening for years.

It's bad politics, not the faith.
What's happening is a bunch of ***** interpreting Islam in an extremist fashion and radicalising disenfranchised youth.
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A line needs to be drawn between Muslims as individuals, of which there are many good people, and Islam as a religion and a doctrine that should be open to criticism as a whole. The literal words of Islam and some of its teachings are extreme, and extremely outdated. As seen in other religious texts. However, the muslim world is taking a long time to catch up with western liberalism and "ignore" its outdated texts. It's not hard to looks at the facts and see that.

It's a fact that Saudi Arabia, Qatar plus others support and prop up salafist and wahhabi teachings of Islam, and their cultures are so far from the liberal ones here it's like chalk and cheese. You can't expect to flood a load of people from two different areas and expect an instant mutual understanding. Many have a belief that if you are not subscribed to their doctrine or ideology then you are scum who can be wiped from the face of the earth.

Labelling people xenophobic purely for highlighting these issues, and not actually countering their ideas with true debate and facts, is just a failing and will not progress humanity anywhere. We should be able to discuss these topics openly without personal slurs.
 
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RoboCod said:
I disagree. Islam as a faith has a problem of violence, it is endemic in the belief system. What is required in Islam is reformation. By excusing Islam and placing responsibilty elsewhere you are effectively preventing that reformation and allowing the extremists to dominate the conversation. Some people only blame society and politics so they don't have to admit that Islam has a violence problem. This is the root, this is what needs to be addressed. Pacification does not work in this case.
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quite hard to achieve unfortunately, granted there are differing interpretations but the Quran itself is supposed to be the literal word of God, muslims are brainwashed from a young age to believe that Islam is perfect as Skunkworks has highlighted:

Skunkworks said:
When you understand that he has been programmed from birth to think that Islam is amazing and perfect, everything he says makes sense.
  • If a Muslim does something bad it logically follows that they can’t be a real Muslim, because Islam is amazing and perfect.
  • If an Islamic country is a total crap-hole it logically follows that it must be someone else’s fault as Islam is amazing and perfect.
  • If somebody doesn’t like Islam it logically follows they are an ignorant bigot because Islam is amazing and perfect.
And so on…
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this is also why you see posters in this thread throwing around terms like 'islamophobe' and trying to cling onto poor excuses like 'Western foreign policy' or 'disenfranchised youth' neither of which are issues that cause suicide bombings in non-muslims
 
dowie said:
quite hard to achieve unfortunately, granted there are differing interpretations but the Quran itself is supposed to be the literal word of God, muslims are brainwashed from a young age to believe that Islam is perfect as Skunkworks has highlighted:
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Well of course it's not easy. I don't think the reformation of any belief system has ever been easy. You've just highlighted the point where the problem begins though; young age. We can't just not bother because it's hard to achieve. There is no other way to achieve (assuming the achievement goal is peace amongst differing beliefs). There is no other way to reach that goal. Dragging Islam into the modern age is the only clear compromise. It's that or just decades of needless terror and death on all fronts.
 
Moses said:
The point is that instead of just going, 'LOL WHAT *******S. Herp derp Muslims'... which achieves nothing... instead we should accept that people are more likely to make these terrible choices when they feel they have no options, no purpose in life, etc, so there is something we can do to help prevent it happening.
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Lol, why should more be done for Muslims, than any other deprived person/community.

I don't see the local unemployed bombing people.
I don't see my neighbourhood 'chavs' bombing people.
I don't wake up in the morning and think life isn't fair and choose to bomb people.

They have exactly the same options as all people born in the UK, free healthcare, free education - Thats a bloody good kick start in life that millions would be grateful for.

Then they get poisoned by their parents/community/religion.

Stop blaming outside sources, when the issue lies within.
 
mjt said:
It's bad politics, not the faith.

What's happening is a bunch of ***** interpreting Islam in an extremist fashion
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No sorry, it is the faith.
Nobody in their right minds is happy to absolve islam from this issue (except Corbyn)

In fact it is the only faith that can be read in an extremist fashion. No other religion promotes or excuses violence of any sort against anyone, not even unaccompanied second class women.

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So, a bunch of fairly violent and badly educated 3rd world cultures are spoon fed with an loosely interpretable 15th century religion that readily excuses violence in a number of ways, then it's not unreasonable to suggest that religion to be the root cause of a number of unfortunate tragedies whenever it collides with our 21st century civilisation.

So please stop pretending islam is forever blameless simply because 3rd world people failed to spot the finer peaceful nuances of jihadism and stoning, because that's just disingenuous BS. And it doesn't really explain all the well-educated Britsh Jihadis who choose the same path.
 
dowie said:
this is also why you see posters in this thread throwing around terms like 'islamophobe' and trying to cling onto poor excuses like 'Western foreign policy' or 'disenfranchised youth' neither of which are issues that cause suicide bombings in non-muslims
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The people who use those terms are exactly the people who are preventing reformation and allowing extremists to dominate the conversation. The extremists want people to hold this far left view, it is in their favour, they're essentially assisting.
 
well I think the quilliam foundation is a good idea... but then you see the reaction to it on here from the likes of Zoomee and unfortunately that represents fairly mainstream muslim views

I mean the founder Maajid Nawaz has some good ideas but when he merely mentioned re: the Jesus and Mo cartoon that "This is not offensive & I'm sure God is greater than to feel threatened by it." it caused a **** storm among 'moderate' muslims, including a fellow liberal democrat Mohammed Shafiq who made all sorts of dodgy insinuations: "We will notify all muslim organisations in the UK of his despicable behaviour and also notify Islamic countries." essentially a veiled threat. I mean those are the sorts of backwards views we're facing... and not from extremists but just ordinary moderates who've been brainwashed by Islam.
 
Moses said:
The point is that instead of just going, 'LOL WHAT *******S. Herp derp Muslims'... which achieves nothing... instead we should accept that people are more likely to make these terrible choices when they feel they have no options, no purpose in life, etc, so there is something we can do to help prevent it happening.
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Again, this is ridiculous. They get all entitlements as everyone else, as they should. Rather than propping up "special" structures for them and causing segregation and a split society, all peoples can integrate into schools and teachings we already have. There is simply no excuse for why people bomb innocent civilians (western armies included....). There might be a "reason" for these terrorists based on the persons history and external influences, but it is a completely regressive point of view to excuse or "link" an individuals actions purely because of "institutionalized structures". The main link between everyone so far is they have been influenced by salafist and wahabi ideologies, all other suggestions are just clutching at straws. Unless i'm mistaken quite a few high profile extremists have decent grades / education, so i'm not convinced that's an answer.

If everyone who felt they had "no options" or "purpose in life" went out to cold kill, we'd be in serious trouble.
 
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N17 said:
Explain why there was no wreckage found after the pentagon attacks, explain why explosions were heard prior to the planes hitting the towers, and explain why there is wind on the moon, that was blowing the US flag..............
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You can't be this dim, surely?
 
dowie said:
well I think the quilliam foundation is a good idea... but then you see the reaction to it on here from the likes of Zoomee and unfortunately that represents fairly mainstream muslim views

I mean the founder Maajid Nawaz has some good ideas but when he merely mentioned re: the Jesus and Mo cartoon that "This is not offensive & I'm sure God is greater than to feel threatened by it." it caused a **** storm among 'moderate' muslims, including a fellow liberal democrat Mohammed Shafiq who made all sorts of dodgy insinuations: "We will notify all muslim organisations in the UK of his despicable behaviour and also notify Islamic countries." essentially a veiled threat. I mean those are the sorts of backwards views we're facing... and not from extremists but just ordinary moderates who've been brainwashed by Islam.
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It's clear that the perception of a moderate is far from what is actual. Muslims will expectedly react angrily, their belief system is being criticised and being called upon to reform. Alas, there is no other option. Integration and compromise is accepted or Islam remains vilified until it does. That isn't a lack of tolerance on everyone else's behalf, it is a simple requirement of all decent human beings in this modern world.
 
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Moses said:
So what is your solution? Why wouldn't you try and prevent terrorism, regardless of which groups it would include? And it's not as though we'd only help Muslims... you know we could also help anyone living in deprived circumstances... people more likely to commit crime and so forth (maybe not terrorism, but still negative for society).
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Ultimately ISlam needs to be brought up to date and up to speed. Outreach programmes like those endorsed by Fasial Saeed Al Mutar and Majid Nauwz need to be brought to the fore and encouraged.

As i've said, there are many great liberal people out there who would "Identify" as Muslim, but it's simply the case that Islam as an ideology in its literal interpretation is very outdated and backward. We need those outreach programmes to not only reach our kids, but more importantly the kids brought up in extreme conservative countries.

We also play to Saudi Arabia too happily. We should try and take baby steps with them to bring more freedom to Women. We shouldn't push too hard and create a syria-like instability, but we can't apply one policy to al-qaeda and then another to the Saudis as though they're legitimate, when ultimately they believe the same things.

Terrorism has little to do with a "lack of entitlements" over here, and everything to do with millions of people being brought up in extreme conservative environments in a lot of majority Muslim countries.

Faisal.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMWhZG5SMyw
 
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