Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (April Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 452 45.0%
  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 553 55.0%

  • Total voters
    1,005
  • Poll closed .
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You apparently think that the actions of each member state should overrule the democratically expressed will of everyone else, how does that make it more democratic?


You shoot your own pro-eu arguments in the foot with this statement.

So basically, as long as the majority want it, sod the minority that don't? Right?

Oh and before you make some lame justification about that's how elections work or some other straw man argument, i'll point out this is talking about a sovereign nation's will, not some political party who could be ousted at a GE, but an organization which has its roots so firmly wrapped around its member states that getting rid of it isn't a flip of a switch as everything leading upto the Brexit shows.
 
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You shoot your own pro-eu arguments in the foot with this statement.

So basically, as long as the majority want it, sod the minority that don't? Right?

Check our last General Election results. Sounds familiar? (But swap "majority" and "minority" around :p :()
 
You shoot your own pro-eu arguments in the foot with this statement.

So basically, as long as the majority want it, sod the minority that don't? Right?

Looking at UK (FPTP) democracy, it's not even a majority (by many measures) and still the outcome is the same. It come across as you simply don't like democracy when it suits your argument.
 
Stuff this in your Brexit pipe and smoke it...

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Just arrived and I can see it persuading to people stay in the remain camp.

Mine has been returned to Number 10, lol.

Sick of junk mail.
 
YOh and before you make some lame justification about that's how elections work or some other straw man argument, i'll point out this is talking about a sovereign nation's will....

Well, no, actually it isn't. Because the democratically elected Dutch government has chosen not to act on the non-binding referendum. Now I have no idea what they're playing at having exercises like these but the fact is that the Dutch nation has chosen not to attempt to overrule the rest of the EU.

...not some political party who could be ousted at a GE, but an organization which has its roots so firmly wrapped around its member states that getting rid of it isn't a flip of a switch as everything leading upto the Brexit shows.

The EU is not some evil, parasitic organisation with a will of its own but a collaboration of nations that is accountable to those nations and their populous. And, as with any sensible club, individual members do not have tyrannical powers to ignore the will of other nations.

A non-binding referendum, with a low turnout, in a country whose government has chosen not to act on it shouldn't be able to single handedly determine EU policy. That would be bizarre.
 
I thought those GE straw man arguments would soon appear, so I added an edit to my post.

Easier to edit back than address the points, do you for example advocate breaking up the UK?

Scotland / Wales / NI all can claim the same arguments, you can even get more regional with Cornish Independence and the larger/cities regions often decrying London centric governments.

Since when was it set in stone that UK democracy is the ideal scale of democracy?
 
Easier to edit back than address the points, do you for example advocate breaking up the UK?

Scotland / Wales / NI all can claim the same arguments, you can even get more regional with Cornish Independence and the larger/cities regions often decrying London centric governments.

Since when was it set in stone that UK democracy is the ideal scale of democracy?

We have moved towards more local government, which is always a good thing. As a rule of thumb, less government is always a good thing. The more layers of power you have the more room there is for corruption, which is some thing people should be mindful of.
 
We have moved towards more local government, which is always a good thing. As a rule of thumb, less government is always a good thing. The more layers of power you have the more room there is for corruption, which is some thing people should be mindful of.

We had more local forms of government before the 80s, their powers were removed by Thatcher. I'm not convinced we have really moved back massively from that.

http://www.theguardian.com/local-go...cal-government-margaret-thatcher-war-politics

P.S. I'm all for empowering local forms of government.

P.P.S. by less government = good thing. Are we talking about underfunding libraries schools and critical services kind of less government, because the corruption in private public initiatives can stink far worse than anything the state can cook up.
 
Normally people arguing for "less government" mean less money spent on things that 'other people' use so that they can be taxed less. Just don't attempt to cut out any of the legal frameworks that allows the free market to function - they quite like property rights being enforced and an effective police force to ensure that they can go about their business.
 
We had more local forms of government before the 80s, their powers were removed by Thatcher. I'm not convinced we have really moved back massively from that.

http://www.theguardian.com/local-go...cal-government-margaret-thatcher-war-politics

P.S. I'm all for empowering local forms of government.

P.P.S. by less government = good thing. Are we talking about underfunding libraries schools and critical services kind of less government, because the corruption in private public initiatives can stink far worse than anything the state can cook up.

I think certain things need to be publically funded.

Education is important, people should have access to free high quality education because other wise it has a detrimental impact on social mobility. Expensive education just leads to high levels of Nepotism.

Our NHS should be looked at imo, I like the idea of free health care but the option to opt out and pay into a private service should be available for those who would prefer that.


Thatcher probably had the right idea of moving towards less government, the problem was that Local government is more important than a bloated central government.
 
It's 0.5% of the population of the EU. Remember as well that while you keep talking about the EU; the Dutch government are the ones who are choosing not to act on the result of the non-binding referendum. They could, in principle, derail this.

They could, and probably want to given their PM said ratification "cannot go ahead" after the result. I haven't seen anything in the news (other than the express) saying exactly what the outcome is, so assume it's being worked out by the EU behind closed doors. Ah, democracy.

Funny how Juncker also said before the vote "I do not believe that the Dutch people will say no because it would open the door to a big continental crisis.”

Let's see about that.

Where are you getting that figure from? The Euroskeptic blocks in the EU are ECR (Tory), EFDD (UKIP) and EFN (French Front National) who together have 149 MEPs: just under 20% of the total.

Took it from the FT, so may not be fully accurate. Although the BBC seems to agree.

I'm really not sure how you expect this to work. The EU required changes to be made because it hadn't been updated for the new membership. Should it carry on being dysfunctional because people in one or two member states rejected the treaty? How does that make sense? How is rejecting rules that introduce greater democratic accountability being more democratic? There were renegotiations and after those renegotiations the changed treaty was accepted.

The point is this; even if the result is clearly against them, they just wait a while or "tweak" the deal around the edges and go again. The core objective of more countries and more power (despite the widespread and growing criticism) continues to be played out.


And passed at the second referendum. Why do you think that should be ignored? Why do you think that you're a better judge of whether the changes made met the objections of the people of Denmark and Ireland than the people who actually voted on them?

As above. Also, you realise the time between the 1st referendum (which gave the wrong answer) and the 2nd was something like 6 months? And in that time negotiated behind closed doors, as usual. Can you imagine being asked now to "re-vote" for another general election in the UK, just because someone didn't want the Tories in power?

Why do you expect Germany, France, etc. to be bound by a vote in Greece. This is not how democracy works.

I guess that's the key point. The further away power is from you, and the larger supposed democracy you live in the less likely you are able to make a change. The people of Greece needed (and wanted, on the whole) to be allowed to default, to be able to adjust their monetary policy, devalue their currency and start again. But nope, the bigger goal got in the way and the Euro had to be preserved.

The EU's decisions are made either by its democratically elected parliament, by appointees of the democratically elected parliaments of its member states or by the national governments democratically elected by each member state. The EU is undemocratic exactly to the degree that it is accountable to member states rather than directly elected MEPs. You apparently think that the actions of each member state should overrule the democratically expressed will of everyone else, how does that make it more democratic?

Not really. The Commission "initiates" most EU law and the European Parliament is pretty weak, hence why a lot of people don't see the point in voting for that and we get such low turnouts.
 
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On what basis is the EU Parliament 'pretty weak'? Is our Parliament weak because the government initiates most legislation?

If it's so powerful then why has voter turnout decreased every single year since it was set up? See here. If people thought they could change the EU from the inside (i.e. if MEPs did actually have any power, as supposedly they do), then people wouldn't have either i) not voted or ii) voted for those who are opposed to the EU altogether. But most people did one of those two things.

People have no idea what the European parliament actually does, and its democratic deficit has been written about loads.
 
Back to Dodgy Dave's 'thin gruel' deal with the EU. A top eurocrat has confirmed that it isn't legally binding and the European Parliament may water it down.
 
Pro EU stay leaflet has just rocked up, have to hand it to them it's impeccable timing. Just used the last sheet of toilet roll and can't be bothered going to get some more, should last me a couple of days.
 
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