Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (April Poll)

[scorza]

Its good that we have incentives to change for the better isn't it?

Except that better behaviour would be to not produce as much waste in the first place, which the UK is in the process of doing by for example, switching to lighter paper and reading newspapers online. This incentive has all the hallmarks of a Soviet style bureaucratic penchant for targets and plans, rather than a deep understanding and will to resolve the fundamental problem at hand.

 

[squerble]

The thing that's bothering me most about this vote is, it's creeping up but I still have no idea which way to vote. I don't feel there's enough information around to form an educated choice and this bothers me.

 

[scorza]

The thing that's bothering me most about this vote is, it's creeping up but I still have no idea which way to vote. I don't feel there's enough information around to form an educated choice and this bothers me.

What information would you like?

 

[estebanrey]

Except that better behaviour would be to not produce as much waste in the first place, which the UK is in the process of doing by for example, switching to lighter paper and reading newspapers online. This incentive has all the hallmarks of a Soviet style bureaucratic penchant for targets and plans, rather than a deep understanding and will to resolve the fundamental problem at hand.

It isn't an either/or though, we can reduce packaging AND encourage the re-use of materials that are already in the system.

The "I shouldn't have to recycle, manufacturers should make less waste first place" argument is basically an excuse for laziness.

 

[scorza]

It isn't an either/or though, we can reduce packaging AND encourage the re-use of materials that are already in the system.

The "I shouldn't have to recycle, manufacturers should make less waste first place" argument is basically an excuse for laziness.

The EU is only incentivising one though. I rather suspect the reason for that may be the Eastern European countries, whose economies should be growing fast as a result of EU membership, are probably expecting to increase the amount of waste they produce, and therefore wouldn't be willing to agree to targets to reduce the amount of waste. Which is another example I think for why the EU's 'one size fits all' approach just isn't effective.

 

[Crpwned]

The EU is only incentivising one though. I rather suspect the reason for that may be the Eastern European countries, whose economies should be growing fast as a result of EU membership, are probably expecting to increase the amount of waste they produce, and therefore wouldn't be willing to agree to targets to reduce the amount of waste. Which is another example I think for why the EU's 'one size fits all' approach just isn't effective.

But isn't that just common sense? As the economies grow then of course they're going to produce more waste products until they're at a soft cap for growth, at which point they could look at ways to reduce the amount of waste they're producing.
Whilst they're still growing though I imagine it would be hard to stop waste products increasing, but it would not stop them recycling the waste they do produce.

 

[scorza]

But isn't that just common sense? As the economies grow then of course they're going to produce more waste products until they're at a soft cap for growth, at which point they could look at ways to reduce the amount of waste they're producing.
Whilst they're still growing though I imagine it would be hard to stop waste products increasing, but it would not stop them recycling the waste they do produce.

But in this example the overall result is that because the UK has reduced the tonnage of paper we consume, we recycle a lower percentage of our total waste that we recycle, putting us at risk of being fined. Essentially under these EU rules we could avoid the fine by printing tonnes of extra newspapers and throwing them straight in the recycle bin - it's perverse. Which is why I wondered that perhaps this was the motivation behind the £9m propaganda leaflet.

 

[joeyjojo]

The thing that's bothering me most about this vote is, it's creeping up but I still have no idea which way to vote. I don't feel there's enough information around to form an educated choice and this bothers me.

Go with your gut feeling.

Seriously, I've come around to the notion that since this is being put to a referendum (wrongly, IMO) we should all forget the economic and demographic arguments and vote based on principles.

Want to be part of the union? Remain. Don't? Leave. Forget about the effects on trade, jobs, currency, industry... they'll all work out in the end either way.

Or maybe I'm just sick of the constant coverage.

 

[#Chri5#]

The thing that's bothering me most about this vote is, it's creeping up but I still have no idea which way to vote. I don't feel there's enough information around to form an educated choice and this bothers me.

I'm not sure you can make an educated choice here.

For every prediction wheeled out by one side, the other side immediately refutes it. Take yesterday's IMF prediction of "severe damage" if we leave (BBC):

We're doomed...

Chancellor George Osborne said the IMF's comments reinforced the case for staying. "The IMF has given us the clearest independent warning of the taste of bad things to come if we leave the EU," he said.

Oh, maybe not...

Former chancellor Lord Lamont also dismissed the IMF's concerns as "assertions… for which there is no real evidence".

He said the IMF was "very closely connected to the European Union" and was therefore "bound to reflect their views".

"The idea that we wouldn't continue trading on a perfectly normal basis is just fantasy," he added.

Oh no...

But the CBI has warned a British exit from the EU - known as a "Brexit" - could cost the UK economy £100bn and nearly one million jobs

On the other hand, there's nothing to worry about...

Credit ratings agency Moody's recently said the the impact of the UK leaving the EU would be "small" and was unlikely to lead to big job losses.

Might as well flip a coin.

 

[platypus]

What annoys me most about that Chri5 is that a bloody ratings agency has so much power.

And if they decide a British exit is not in their interests they'll downgrade the credit rating should that happen, and if they suddenly decide after a vote to stay isn't in their interests, they'll downgrade the credit rating.

 

[John40]

It's been announced that there will be a debate in parliament on May the 9th about the £9m splurged on Project Fear's pro EU leaflet.

What's the point now it's been bought, paid for and delivered.

 

[a1ex2001]

Yes but many of the things they conceded are things the Brexiters are convinced we need out of.

No border controls between Austria and Switzerland, for example. Free movement between Germany and Norway..

Isn't opposition to things like this the main reason behind the Brexit?

What's the point in voting Out to rid the country of immigrants and EU laws if we subsequently then enter a trade agreement a-la Norway which makes us liable to follow many EU laws and allow... free movement?! What have we achieved?

God don't point out the stupidity of the Sovereignty trumps all argument this place will implode!

I still don't have enough information to be convinced the upheaval of leaving is worth it just lots of rhetoric from rich slightly bonkers old white men so my vote will still be to remain!

 

[platypus]

What's the point in voting Out to rid the country of immigrants and EU laws if we subsequently then enter a trade agreement a-la Norway which makes us liable to follow many EU laws and allow... free movement?! What have we achieved?

God don't point out the stupidity of the Sovereignty trumps all argument this place will implode!

You two are missing the point that someone will no doubt make as a counter to this logic that Britain will be able to negotiate whatever trade deal it wants because UKgoddamnitwhywouldntwestopscaremongering.

It's been announced that there will be a debate in parliament on May the 9th about the £9m splurged on Project Fear's pro EU leaflet.

What's the point now it's been bought, paid for and delivered.

Doesn't mean that parliament shouldn't hold the government to account for it, does it?

 

[John40]

God don't point out the stupidity of the Sovereignty trumps all argument this place will implode!

I still don't have enough information to be convinced the upheaval of leaving is worth it just lots of rhetoric from rich slightly bonkers old white men so my vote will still be to remain!

So you think there won't be any upheaval assuming we Stay in, once you've voted you've had it, they will have us exactly where they want us.
Whatever they do we'll be buggered.

 

[platypus]

Whatever we do we'll be buggered.

I think this is pretty much a given .

 

[Yaayuh!]

Well that seems like a compelling and well thought out argument.

I literally laughed out loud.

Never change Fox, never change.... Well maybe a little bit.

 

[scorza]

God don't point out the stupidity of the Sovereignty trumps all argument this place will implode!

I still don't have enough information to be convinced the upheaval of leaving is worth it just lots of rhetoric from rich slightly bonkers old white men so my vote will still be to remain!

It doesn't trump all but it's wrong to try and suggest that sovereignty isn't an important issue. It's one of the most important issues in politics for me.

 

[joeyjojo]

What annoys me most about that Chri5 is that a bloody ratings agency has so much power.

And if they decide a British exit is not in their interests they'll downgrade the credit rating should that happen, and if they suddenly decide after a vote to stay isn't in their interests, they'll downgrade the credit rating.

Have you seen The Big Short? You'd like it.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Generalising it as obtaining complete control and ability to efficiently change them vs having a dictator superstate telling us what to do against our will seems important but in reality, next to nothing will change in reality when it comes to matters decided by sovereignty and the portrayal of post leave Britain suddenly being able to say no to immigrants who earn less than 25k is laughable.

 

[John40]

Cameron has just now once again said we totally control our own borders.
What a liar he is.