*** The Official Elite: Dangerous Thread ***

[Dano]

OK... Can I ask, given people have already "worked" for a long time to get the ship they're in, "worked" for a long time to get the modules they have, and now have to spend numerous hours collecting materials they otherwise have little/no interest in, what the benefit to gameplay is, by making them now grind to earn access to the various levels of Engineer blue prints? Given of course, they've already "worked" to qualify for access to many of these engineers?

How does it benefit anyone making CMDRs spend weeks grinding, doing stuff they do not enjoy, just to give them access to the new variations in modules that will hopefully then make the gameplay more interesting?

How does it help, to basically tuck these features out of reach of individuals who simply cannot stand the idea of farming resources over and over and over, and visiting engineers over and over and over, just to grind up their level with that engineer? Only to then be repeated over and over with other engineers. Would the game suffer, really, if people didn't have to (needlessly) grind to gain access to the different levels of Engineer blue prints? How would it hurt just to let players enjoy playing around with the modules/effects instead, and make the most of them?

Because as I already stated it'll just end up with a new meta.

Yes and no... Yes you're right, many fights are already dictated by the module choices made before. But, will making the matter even more prevalent/polarised help?

Might make pirates a little more cautious... might.

And let's remember, this isn't just PvP, but PvE too... Even more fights now risk ending due to a CMDR having X and the NPC having Y. Not because the CMDR was/wasn't good enough.

Good, lets be honest here, PvE combat is currently very one sided.

Fair enough...

Personally I'd wait until it's out in Live to dare to be so concrete about a statement...

I reserve the right to be proven completely wrong

I fear if FD have put in buckets of grind into ranking up with Engineers, many CMDRs will feel frustrated. Either in that they just can't stomach the thought of doing countless hours of grind, or that they can stomach it but feel truly agrieved at having to do it just to enjoy the outcome... All seemingly down to a force of habbit design choice by FD, rather than a real game balancing purpose?!

Basically, IMHO, Engineers & Crafting, much like Powerplay, seems like a good idea, which unfortunately has been poorly implemented.

Maybe, it's not the way I play the game so I just don't see it that way.

You know, you come across quite condescending.

Please do not tell those of us who do not agree with your opinion that we are "playing the game wrong". There are no rules to this game other than those set out in the environment. Just because we do not agree with you and feel the new content and "features" will disadvantage the way WE play, should not mean you lecture to us.

It's an opinion, nothing more, don't get offended by it, apologies that it came across badly.

We play differently to you, I play PvE and I will be disadvantaged if an NPC is totally out gunning me at a lower rank. I have grinned to get the equipment I own and for it to be null and void just because a random spin of the NPC wheel fortune will be both frustrating and off putting. I do not win every fight as it should be, so I am sure it is balanced for me and I suspect many others. .

You know that there are new weapon modules and the AI has been balanced with this update right? Or are you basing your objections on a singular aspect of an update you have yet to play?

I reset my save to see just how bad it is for new players, I had no issues taking down an Anaconda in my sidewinder with the help of other AI in a RES, I'm quite happy to drop into High RES and bounty hunt in a near stock sidey, and that is with zero engineer modifications whatsoever but sure as hell some of the AI have them, it's not made that big a difference, so long as you pick your fights you'll be okay, same as it currently is, there's just more variety now.

The one thing I don't like whatsoever about this update is that non-Horizons players wont have access to the engineers, that, is a definite issue.

 

[NeilF]

OK... Can I ask, given people have already "worked" for a long time to get the ship they're in, "worked" for a long time to get the modules they have, and now have to spend numerous hours collecting materials they otherwise have little/no interest in, what the benefit to gameplay is, by making them now grind to earn access to the various levels of Engineer blue prints? Given of course, they've already "worked" to qualify for access to many of these engineers?

How does it benefit anyone making CMDRs spend weeks grinding, doing stuff they do not enjoy, just to give them access to the new variations in modules that will hopefully then make the gameplay more interesting?

How does it help, to basically tuck these features out of reach of individuals who simply cannot stand the idea of farming resources over and over and over, and visiting engineers over and over and over, just to grind up their level with that engineer? Only to then be repeated over and over with other engineers. Would the game suffer, really, if people didn't have to (needlessly) grind to gain access to the different levels of Engineer blue prints? How would it hurt just to let players enjoy playing around with the modules/effects instead, and make the most of them?

Because as I already stated it'll just end up with a new meta.

You'll need to explain with this one...?

The question was, does creating a huge mound of grind to climb over to gain access to module crafting help the game? My suggestion is no.

Youe view is if people have easy access to module crafting, this will create a new meta? ie: A selection of prefered setups? If I've understood?

How is trying to bury that under a pile of grind - quite possible alienating a huge number of the community from even utilising it to a reasonable degree - a good move?

From a personal point of view, if there is a bucket of grind involved in crafting, and moving up levels with an Engineer, I suspect I won't be able to muster up the will power to swallow that pill. I can actually imagine stepping away from the game in frustration.

The next two months will be interesting... I still predict lots of frustrated CMDRs if Engineers/Crafting is grindastic. And I predict lots of frustrated CMDRs at some of the new "effects" being introduced causing "balancing" issues. Or "metas" if you will.


ps: Yes, non-horizons CMDRs having no access to engineers is clearly a marketing choice by FD. ie: Engineers could just as easily have been in some stations...

 

[ttaskmaster]

I can give you a projected opinion now, easy enough:

1) Rather than paying for each crafting with 1 ton of fish (which you can buy at the location) if you instead had to go and farm materials for hour(s) to gather your "payment".

That would be what I expect. Buying the required commodity on-site is stupid... no, RETARDED!!
I can't buy Imperial Slaves for 5Cr and then sell them at a grand a piece all from within the same station... so why this?
Right now I farm bounties to make the money to buy new ships and components, so farming/mining commodities would be a less dangerous form of what I'm currently doing - I can get bored, make mistakes, do something stupid or just be overzealous in my hunting, which often gets me killed... I can't really get too overenthusiastic in my mine fragment scooping!!

2) If instead of doing a single crafting at a level, means you then have access to the next level, you had to do it dozen of times.

Not sure - On the one hand, I'm not doing the crafting so as long as I pay for it I should get whatever I want... but on the other, I figure the Engineer wouldn't simply sell his best **** to someone he's only just met... and it'd make me seriously über if I went out and did exactly that!

3) That (I believe) you need to go through some of this with one engineer, just to gain access to another.

Kinda like making friends with a faction in order to progress reputation, then rank, in order to buy certain ships.
Not an especial problem for me, in principle.

Does that sound appealing? Does that sound as if the development effort has introduce new interesting mechanics? Or does it sounds almost lazy and cynical?

Appealing - no... Realistically necessary - To an extent, yes. Elite has always been a bit of a grindy game - I've been playing since Beta and am still only ranked Dangerous. It's supposed to take a good while to get there.

Interesting new mechanic - Not quite. More like a variation on some existing ones. No particular problem with the concept, but equally it shouldn't take *too* long!

Lazy and cynical - Perhaps a bit. But I also feel there's the potential for some huge imbalances, so to stop too many people from going nuts with all these upgrades, the mechanic has been introduced that makes you work for it.

The question was, does creating a huge mound of grind to climb over to gain access to module crafting help the game? My suggestion is no.

Implementation is key - Too much and people will go elsewhere. Not enough and people will be overpowered everywhere. Just enough and NPC combats will have an added element of uncertainty.

How is trying to bury that under a pile of grind - quite possible alienating a huge number of the community from even utilising it to a reasonable degree - a good move?

In theory - No different to stopping every Newbie from storming around in a big-ass battleship...

ps: Yes, non-horizons CMDRs having no access to engineers is clearly a marketing choice by FD. ie: Engineers could just as easily have been in some stations...

So long as Non-Horizons ones also do not encounter NPCs packing Engineer-modded kit - That WOULD be retarded!!!

 

[Dano]

It's your choice to grind or not. I know I won't.

It's got to behind some sort of wall otherwise it is just pointless, only the very best will get used and everybody will have them leading to stagnation and boredom.

Of course there will be frustrated commanders, they'll be the vocal majority screaming for the best mods on a plate, meanwhile everybody else will just get on with playing and enjoying the uniqueness that the engineers will bring to the table.

I'm sure if it turns out to be as unpopular as you seem to think it will be FD will adjust it, they're pretty good at listening to community feedback but you have to remember that the forums where all the shouting happens is a minority of players and usually the it is the ones who have an issue posting the most.

 

[Dano]

The fish thing is a temporary beta situation to allow widescale testing of engineered modules without the need to use components, it won't be like that in live where you will need to collect the various parts via scans/missions/looting.

 

[NeilF]

In theory - No different to stopping every Newbie from storming around in a big-ass battleship...

That's a little bit of a strawman isn't it?

To get to a good combat FDL for example, takes nigh on 100mCR. You've already done a lot of work to get to that stage. But you can now buy any module you like that will fit in it.

If I could now and go and craft my modules (to any degree/level) just by collecting the necessary materials, and paying a reasonable CR payment, what's the problem?

Making me grind away for dozens of hours or more, picking materials up, and playing Wheel of Fortune when I don't want to achieves what?

If we want them to be restricted there's surely other ways to achieve that? You get blue prints during data scans/missions/from wrecks, and these can only be used on the appropriate modules when you're at the appropriate rank (eg: Dangerous combat rank). This seems more inkeeping with the game, and more of a reward mechanic than a trial by grind...

So long as Non-Horizons ones also do not encounter NPCs packing Engineer-modded kit - That WOULD be retarded!!!

Can't see it working anyway but that way TBH. ie: I can play with a non-horizons player in a RES for example... Why would the game treat the NPCs differently for him and me, when we're in the same instance?!

 

[NeilF]

The fish thing is a temporary beta situation to allow widescale testing of engineered modules without the need to use components, it won't be like that in live where you will need to collect the various parts via scans/missions/looting.

I think you need to read posts a little more carefully... I don't believe anyone was suggesting otherwise.

Also, the forum's "Quote" feature is very useful so people can understand the context your reply is being made in.

 

[Dano]

Making me grind away for dozens of hours or more, picking materials up, and playing Wheel of Fortune when I don't want to achieves what?

Don't do it then, nobody is making you grind, what are you basing the hours on? Currently in beta fish are what is used so there is no basis for how long you will need to spend collecting materials apart from outdated information that ceased to be relevant over a week ago. You do not need engineered modules to play just as you don't need to participate in powerplay.

 

[Dano]

I think you need to read posts a little more carefully... I don't believe anyone was suggesting otherwise.

It was in response to ttaskmasters post:

That would be what I expect. Buying the required commodity on-site is stupid... no, RETARDED!!
I can't buy Imperial Slaves for 5Cr and then sell them at a grand a piece all from within the same station... so why this?

Also, the forum's "Quote" feature is very useful so people can understand the context your reply is being made in.

I was on my tablet which makes quoting really awkward, sorry

 

[NeilF]

It's got to behind some sort of wall otherwise it is just pointless,

What wall is there preventing you from buying any weapon you want at the moment? Surely there should be one, and we should have to grind to earn access to each one. eg: To get access to rail guns? Because if not, it's pointless?

only the very best will get used and everybody will have them leading to stagnation and boredom.

The premise of crafting is not to create "better" weapons, but different ones. If it does transpire that out of crafting we simply get a new meta (ie: fit module X crafted to Y for the best outcome) all of this will be for nothing.

Why? Because not only will people just go for that combination/setup (think PvP FDL shield tanked rail guns at the moment), worse still, due to the potential grind involved, there will be the haves and have nots. With the have nots being (really can't face the grind), or non-horizons players...

 

[ttaskmaster]

That's a little bit of a strawman isn't it?
To get to a good combat FDL for example, takes nigh on 100mCR. You've already done a lot of work to get to that stage. But you can now buy any module you like that will fit in it.

Any standard module, yes... But any über-super-module should not then be available for just a handfull of Cr, otherwise the standard stuff is pretty pointless.

If I could now and go and craft my modules (to any degree/level) just by collecting the necessary materials, and paying a reasonable CR payment, what's the problem?

The Cr payment ought to be a bit more than just reasonable. Otherwise we'd all be just buying the absolute top **** and going round in the best ship around - That's how it's happened in all my other games (stock or modded) that did something similar.

Making me grind away for dozens of hours or more, picking materials up, and playing Wheel of Fortune when I don't want to achieves what?

Having the big, powerful ships and guns cost lots of money that you don't want to waste time earning achieves what?
Same thing...

these can only be used on the appropriate modules when you're at the appropriate rank (eg: Dangerous combat rank). This seems more inkeeping with the game, and more of a reward mechanic than a trial by grind...

That's what making friends with the right Engineers seems to be about.

I can play with a non-horizons player in a RES for example... Why would the game treat the NPCs differently for him and me, when we're in the same instance?!

RESes exist in both versions of the game.
But you can land on a planet, whereas he blows up in atmo, no?

In the case of Engineered kit - His poxy little weapons cannot damage my shields fast enough to cause any damage, whereas one hit from any one of my weapons will blow his butt to oblivion - A game is not fun when you stand absolutely NO chance of winning... That's why.

 

[NeilF]

It was in response to ttaskmasters post:




I was on my tablet which makes quoting really awkward, sorry

My bad...

I missed his comment about thinking "fish" was anything other testing behaviour...

 

[ttaskmaster]

It was in response to ttaskmasters post:

And Tasky thought that was how it is, based on earlier reports, because he has not yet had a bash at the new release... and is getting more confused by referring to himself in the third person!!

 

[NeilF]

Any standard module, yes... But any über-super-module should not then be available for just a handfull of Cr, otherwise the standard stuff is pretty pointless.

Uber-super-duper module being a crafted one?

Remember, crafting is not suppose to make a module out right better. It's suppose to make it better for your needs. For example, if you envisage people getting a beam laser and making it 25% more powerful, and that's then an uber-super-module, I'd have to say that's not ideal. Because don't forget, it will also have downsides, like more energy usage/heat generation.

It may well prove a better weapon for your play style, but maybe not mine?

Having the big, powerful ships and guns cost lots of money that you don't want to waste time earning achieves what?
Same thing...

Possibly... But I can earn the credits for those ships and modules in a myriad of ways. To now and simply increase the jump range of my trading ship by 25% I will have to:-
1) Gain access to an appropriate engineer.
2) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 1 craft.
3) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
4) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 2. (Dozens of times? More?)
5) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 2 craft.
6) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
7) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 3. (Dozens of times? More?)
8) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 3 craft.
9) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
10) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 4. (Dozens of times? More?)
11) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 4 craft.
12) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
13) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 5. (Dozens of times? More?)
14) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 5 craft.
15) Finally attempt to gain the performance on my FSD I was after...

You think 1-14 is appealling?

You think 1-14 is intelligent insightful design?

You think 1-14 is the best approach FD could come up with?

And if 1-14 wasn't necessary, or only a tiny hurdle, what would really be the issue? More people having more access to more variation of modules... So?

RESes exist in both versions of the game.

It's more than that.. The same RES, and same RES instance exists for Horizons and non-Horizons players.

ie: I can go to a RES with my ED1.6 friend in a Wing... In such a situation when I'm on 2.1, NPCs may have crafted weapons... but my friend will not (as he can't access planet surfaces to reach engineers etc)...

In short, I suspect he will be facing NPCs with crafted weapons even though he's play 1.6 (or 1.7)... And this backs up the idea, crafted weapons are not suppose to be uber-super weapons, but simply variations...

 

[Dano]

What wall is there preventing you from buying any weapon you want at the moment? Surely there should be one, and we should have to grind to earn access to each one. eg: To get access to rail guns? Because if not, it's pointless?

Cost.

The premise of crafting is not to create "better" weapons, but different ones. If it does transpire that out of crafting we simply get a new meta (ie: fit module X crafted to Y for the best outcome) all of this will be for nothing.

But you wont because it is not a 'do this, get this' case.

Why? Because not only will people just go for that combination/setup (think PvP FDL shield tanked rail guns at the moment), worse still, due to the potential grind involved, there will be the haves and have nots. With the have nots being (really can't face the grind), or non-horizons players...

Which brings us full circle back to why engineered modules have downsides too.

 

[Dano]

What we really need is a second hand module market available to all, that way you can just buy want you want if it's available and in your price bracket

 

[NeilF]

Cost.

And I've already gone over that "cost" hurdle to buy my ship and modules, so how does introducing a completely different set of hurdles simply to craft my modules improve the gameplay?

Worse case, make the hurdles CR based then... At least that way people can go over the hurdles they want to, by getting the CRs by any mechanic they wish, rather than:-
1) Gain access to an appropriate engineer.
2) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 1 craft.
3) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
4) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 2. (Dozens of times? More?)
5) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 2 craft.
6) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
7) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 3. (Dozens of times? More?)
8) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 3 craft.
9) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
10) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 4. (Dozens of times? More?)
11) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 4 craft.
12) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
13) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 5. (Dozens of times? More?)
14) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 5 craft.
15) Finally attempt to gain the performance on my FSD I was after...

^^ Is this really adding quality gameplay mechanics? Or is it a lazy knee-jerk bit of design? Do you see CMDRs lining up to enjoy going through this process?

But you wont because it is not a 'do this, get this' case.

It is to some degree at least. I wanted a 800m/s Eagle. I got one... I just had to play Wheel of Fortune a dozen times until I rolled one

 

[Dano]

How does allowing everybody to have it all improve gameplay?

 

[NeilF]

How does allowing everybody to have it all improve gameplay?

Now now... Let's not lose sight of that valuable "Quote" feature...

Personally I see hiding (burying) crafting potentially behind a mound of grind (collecting materials over and over, visiting the engineer over and over, and crafting over and over) as a bad idea. Indeed I see it as a worse move than the idea of simply letting players have nigh on free access to the features.

Furthermore I said, if we do want to "hurdle" crafting, why not do it via a method which is used elsewhere in the game, and that will allow people to choose their means of approaching it; CRs.

ie: If I want to apply a level 5 craft to my FSD, make be pay a million CRs...


I'll ask again though, do you really think this is ideal?
1) Gain access to an appropriate engineer.
2) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 1 craft.
3) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
4) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 2. (Dozens of times? More?)
5) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 2 craft.
6) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
7) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 3. (Dozens of times? More?)
8) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 3 craft.
9) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
10) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 4. (Dozens of times? More?)
11) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 4 craft.
12) Go to the engineer and play wheel of fortune.
13) Repeat 2-3 enough times to gain access to level 5. (Dozens of times? More?)
14) Collect the exact ingredients for a level 5 craft.
15) Finally attempt to gain the performance on my FSD I was after...

*note: FD have yet to let us know the number of times we need to craft at each level to gain access to the next level. It could be once!!!! It could be thirty!!!


In truth - and I apoligise - I'm just letting some of my frustration overflow. I recall Powerplay... how exciting that sounded. The idea of groups of player pitting their skills against each other. Empire at war. System thrown into turmoil. And what did that turn out to be? Paper thin (ill-considered) mechanics and grind wars karting bits of paper from A to B. And now, we have the exciting idea of Engineers modifying modules to make your ship more interesting.... and... seemingly... paper thin (ill-considered) mechincs and grind wars again...

 

[Dano]

It wont be done via credits because there are too many CMDR's out there with silly amounts of money who effectively will have unlimited access and as I have already said, I am fine with it, I don't see it as an issue whatsoever, no one is forcing you to do it, it's your choice.