shooting in gay club orlando

[Caged]

he pledged allegiance,

has anyone said he's been specifically recruited and planned by high up ISIS figures?
ISIS has repeatedly called for people to plan their own attack without help, and this certainly fits that bill.

I'm really not convinced that having no detectable links to IS and then blurting it out on the phone when cornered in a toilet makes this an IS attack. There's no particularly religious element to it, there's no evidence of radicalisation, this isn't some guy who went to a training camp and came back with a plan.

Anyone can commit an atrocity and shout 'ISIS' at some point, and they aren't the types of incidents that are going to be foiled by tougher borders.

 

[Glaucus]

of course it is, he recognises himself as isis and pledged allegiance,. the fact he has no training make no difference.

and who said anything about border control, its for that very reason ISIS have repeatedly called for such attacks, its extremely hard to foil.

 

[Arazi]

this isn't some guy who went to a training camp and came back with a plan.

How do you know that?

 

[Caged]

How do you know that?

If there's a requirement to preface every statement with "as far as is known currently from the evidence that is available" then let me know and I will see what I can do. The US would have been specifically looking for an IS link and can't find one, and are obviously content enough to release a statement on it. But if you know otherwise then I'm sure the FBI would be grateful for you to share it.

of course it is, he recognises himself as isis and pledged allegiance,. the fact he has no training make no difference.

and who said anything about border control, its for that very reason ISIS have repeatedly called for such attacks, its extremely hard to foil.

It makes a huge difference. If the aim of investigating these events is to be able to chalk some more victims up to ISIS, close the case file, go "boo ISIS are bad" and then move on then yeah, sure, take a claim of IS allegiance that isn't backed up with any evidence at face value and roll with it.

However, if you deal with the ISIS problem by fighting them abroad and you tackle religious extremism at home and it turns out that the evidence that this wasn't linked to ISIS was true, then this sort of attack will keep happening. By treating it as what it actually is vs. what the easy option would be, as alluded to by RoboCod, you might have a chance of making a difference.

 

[Glaucus]

what on earth are you one about, that makes no sense at all.

 

[Arazi]

I'm not convinced by what the FBI have said, this guy got through, the FBI could be trying to cover a mess they have potentially made.

 

[scorza]

I'm really not convinced that having no detectable links to IS and then blurting it out on the phone when cornered in a toilet makes this an IS attack. There's no particularly religious element to it, there's no evidence of radicalisation, this isn't some guy who went to a training camp and came back with a plan.

Anyone can commit an atrocity and shout 'ISIS' at some point, and they aren't the types of incidents that are going to be foiled by tougher borders.

What about an IS social media site warning that they'd be attacking Florida three days earlier?

 

[Arazi]

Trump giving a speech now, he is still going to ban Muslim's from entering the USA.

He is going to suspend all immigration from any country that is deemed a threat to the USA, Islamist threat i presume.

 

[SciNeT]

So no moral outrage at what the Westboro baptist church tweeted earlier today then???

Or have you lot been too busy arguing about how evil Islam and Muslims are, to take any notice what that crazy Christian church is spouting off??

Westboro Church scumbags aggression towards homosexuals = vile, despicable Tweets.

Omar the ISIS supporters aggression towards homosexuals = 49 gunned down in cold blood.

Yes, pretty much the same between the two religions there.

Wow.

 

[Caged]

what on earth are you one about, that makes no sense at all.

How so? If the aim is to prevent these sorts of incidents then they need to be understood. Insisting it's something that the evidence doesn't support because it fits a narrative would seem to be counter-productive to that aim.

What about an IS social media site warning that they'd be attacking Florida three days earlier?

I would assume that the FBI took that into account before reaching their view on there being no clear evidence of a link.

 

[nitram100]

Westboro Church scumbags aggression towards homosexuals = vile, despicable Tweets.

Omar the ISIS supporters aggression towards homosexuals = 49 gunned down in cold blood.

Yes, pretty much the same between the two religions there.

Wow.

This. What a stupid comparison, comparing a tweet to a massacre.

 

[Glaucus]

How so? If the aim is to prevent these sorts of incidents then they need to be understood. Insisting it's something that the evidence doesn't support because it fits a narrative would seem to be counter-productive to that aim.

and who has said anything that they shouldn't be understood.

you just made up a load of rubbish, which people haven't said.

just because he self declared as isis, doesn't mean anything you have said is right,

the evidence supports exactly what I said, it does not support what you are trying to say.

 

[Caged]

You said he's ISIS because he said he was, the actual people investigating this has said there is no link that they can find.

If I've misinterpreted your position then please correct me.

 

[Glaucus]

You said he's ISIS because he said he was, the actual people investigating this has said there is no link that they can find.

If I've misinterpreted your position then please correct me.

you might want to read what they said, and stop making stuff up. No where have they said he isn't ISIS, just that he wasn't directed by them. very different from your made up position,

There is no clear evidence that the Orlando gunman was directed by the so-called Islamic State group (IS), US President Barack Obama has said.

he self declared as isis, that's a fact.
its a fact that isis have repeatedly called for such attacks.
just because he wasn't directed or trained doesn't mean squat.

sorry you cant be X as you've never been officially trained by them, what a silly statement.

 

[Caged]

What am I making up?

I think you're reading too quickly and missing my point. If a bloke saying "I am doing this attack because of ISIS" despite there being no evidence of that (similar to a false confession), is enough to count as ISIS, then we as a society will continue to try and resolve those problems in the way we try to resolve the ISIS problem in general.

Whereas if the evidence points to mental health issues, a history of violence, whatever (see RoboCod's post), then by doubling-down on the "he's ISIS because he said he was" position we completely miss why the attack happened in the first place and make no progress towards preventing similar attacks in future.

 

[Glaucus]

no, you are talking rubbish.

no evidence? so you ignore the self declared allegiance call to 999 then,

and no, he probably does have mental health issues, just like most of isis. again that does not stop him seeing himself as isis.

nd no, we are not missing the point of the attack, only you are, by denying what he said.
like everything in life, it is complicated and there will be any factors.

 

[Clum]

Watched an interview on a talkshow over the weekend and they mentioned a child can legally own a shotgun in over two dozen states.

A child can legally own a shotgun in the UK.

 

[Caged]

no, you are talking rubbish.

no evidence? so you ignore the self declared allegiance call to 999 then,

and no, he probably does have mental health issues, just like most of isis. again that does not stop him seeing himself as isis.

nd no, we are not missing the point of the attack, only you are, by denying what he said.
like everything in life, it is complicated and there will be any factors.

It's interesting that you accuse me of talking rubbish for four straight posts, and not reading what people have said. Because I haven't denied that he pledged an allegiance to ISIS while cornered in a toilet, I am suggesting that being able to find no evidence of an ISIS link means that putting too much weight behind the statement to the detriment of other factors is foolish.

Are you always this confrontational?

 

[Glaucus]

again they haven't said that, they found no evidence of isis directing him.

that doens't mean he hasn't been watching propergander or anything else.

and name one place where I said to wrap it up and not investigate it at all, or other posters in this thread, you were all to eager to pull up, with your original post. even though it doesn't say what you keep stating.

 

[Vulcan]

No its not the govenrment has tanks, tocket launchers, eroplanes and nukes.

Youve got a few muppets with rifles.

Who will.of course always be the minority.

And likley quickly killed by thier fellow citizens who would be government backed paramilitary malitias

You've got millions of armed people, versus the military who are rather pro second amendment, basically the same people, they aren't going to move on mass and shoot their own.