The next Labour leader thread

Parties and politicians that don't seem to stand for anything lose their base, disillusion their members, and eventually lose the support of a public who, rightly, just see them as blown in the wind without standing for anything. So electability at all cost is also not a viable position for a functioning party.

A good post.

Very few politicians now stand for something as I am sure I said earlier in the thread. Truth be told we do not know how electable Corbyn is outside of the party membership. He has a party that for the most part hate him.

Despite everything the media and the party say about him in my opinion he is showing staunch steadfastness. The only way the next leadership vote is going to win is by fraud.

The MPs who rail against him need to have a long think and consider if this career is for them. If not there is always a cushy number as a crony in a company they have helped somewhere.

Corbyn is ostensibly unelectable because he cannot be bought with money or brought to heel by those with money.

If he is so unelectable I'm sure there are no objections to a sure fire way to get him to step down and hold a GE.
 
Their primary aim remains to gain power in a parliamentary system and hold and exercise it accordingly in order to further particular political aims and goals.

The second part isn't optional.

Corbyn is frequently portrayed as representing ideological purity at the expense of electability. I'm not sure how true that is, but it's certainly the case that he - and his support - are more concerned with pushing ideas than winning power. Ideological purity is not a viable position for a functional political party.

Blairism represented the other end of the spectrum, the extreme pursuit of electability over ideology*, but this is just a fruitless and ultimately self-defeating. Parties and politicians that don't seem to stand for anything lose their base, disillusion their members, and eventually lose the support of a public who, rightly, just see them as blown in the wind without standing for anything. So electability at all cost is also not a viable position for a functioning party.

Major parties need to win elections to achieve their aims but they also need to stand for something.

* - Although Blair said that he wouldn't support Corbyn's ideas even if they were electable so I'm not sure how true that is of Blair himself.

Hence the latter part of that sentence. But instead of limiting it to the rather vague aims and goals, which is all Corbyn's good for (well, that and criticising the blooming obvious), it also includes the emphasis on the exercise of responsible power held on behalf of all voters, not just party members. That's what you stand for first and foremost.

Ideology of a political party in the UK must be a flexible framework robust enough to get elected, bind the party as a working unit and shape policy through expert advice and empirical evidence. It cannot be left as an unaccountable ethereal mess until it's time to pin down a manifesto, worse still -- a working government. Therefore an ability to change one's approach based on data and compromise, when necessary or forced by conflicting priorities and limited resources, is vital for anything to get done, and to stay so. People management goes without saying -- Jezza's awful at it, Boris Johnson level of awful.

Tony was terrible at the evidence part. Corbyn's letting the side down on everything else. Brown was too much of a technocrat. But it's a matter for the party to select, train and manage its leadership, not the nation's. Picking someone competent and electable is not an impossible task. Picking someone comforting is a recipe for disaster, since at that stage you're in identity politics without a paddle or compass, casting about for events to confirm your bias and blame someone else for your troubles.

Having said that, brand is important. One or two big policies helps, but I challenge you to find many a Labour voter who can go into detail on their party's manifesto and inform you of what the current goals and aims are (ditto for swing voters), and vote accordingly. (Likewise for other big parties.) The Tories manage branding for good or ill rather well even when the mask slips; what's Labour's problem? Not that they are short on Oxbridge-educated PR people with connections in the media. Incidentally, tis also why not treating the majority of your MPs like dirt also helps -- for lack of anything else, they're the brand in a representative system.

Indeed -- what's Labour's brand? What do they stand for now? What the public sees is a troubled leader fighting his MPs over philosophical points he can't communicate to the outside, and MPs not able to perform their duties, fighting internecine battles with other stakeholders of primary interest only to a few active members. The brand is so weak and absent from the public sphere, Theresa May is lecturing them on social justice and responsible capitalism -- it has to be seen to be believed!

Again, parties and MPs stand for their constituents as much if not more so than their beliefs, caveat being their judgement and not the will of the mob is what's employed as democracy. (You can be more ideological in a proportional system, I admit. But that's not what we have.) There are no great ideals without the graft. And Corbyn's dilettante martyr act can only go so far. In fact, it's peaked months ago. Whether it'll be possible to rebuild the party afterwards as an effective force is anyone's guess at this point.
 
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Some of the stories I've been hearing about Owen Smith. :o Corbyn clearly isn't a competent leader but it doesn't sound like Owen Smith would be any better.

My worry is that Corbyn will be reelected as leader, lose the next election by a landslide but his loss will be blamed on a MSM conspiracy/Blairite rebellion. Corbyn will keep his job and the party will continue to commit suicide.
 
Some of the stories I've been hearing about Owen Smith. :o Corbyn clearly isn't a competent leader but it doesn't sound like Owen Smith would be any better.

My worry is that Corbyn will be reelected as leader, lose the next election by a landslide but his loss will be blamed on a MSM conspiracy/Blairite rebellion. Corbyn will keep his job and the party will continue to commit suicide.

In some agreement. But if the Labour MPs want him out and the opposition want him out: Put it to your only guarantee: Call a GE
 
Some of the stories I've been hearing about Owen Smith. :o Corbyn clearly isn't a competent leader but it doesn't sound like Owen Smith would be any better.

My worry is that Corbyn will be reelected as leader, lose the next election by a landslide but his loss will be blamed on a MSM conspiracy/Blairite rebellion. Corbyn will keep his job and the party will continue to commit suicide.

Someone has to start getting them out of a rut. Losing the next election is but a formality unless May stops being calculating half-way through her term, loses the plot and decides to test Trident on Cornish farmers after the hardest possible Brexit.
 
Some of the stories I've been hearing about Owen Smith. :o Corbyn clearly isn't a competent leader but it doesn't sound like Owen Smith would be any better.

My worry is that Corbyn will be reelected as leader, lose the next election by a landslide but his loss will be blamed on a MSM conspiracy/Blairite rebellion. Corbyn will keep his job and the party will continue to commit suicide.

I'm sorry I don't accept that, absolutely load of rubbish.

Less than 10% of the media accurately show his true agenda and policy ideas, then when you look at the Scum Express, Fail, Sun they show 0%.... So yes, the media are to blame, just look at the BBC Laura Kunsberg, the detest on her face when she even saying Corbyn looks like she's going to be sick!

We've got an extra 180,000 to replace him - it'll be fine.

Plus an extra 4million+ in the bank! Great.
 
Some of the stories I've been hearing about Owen Smith. :o Corbyn clearly isn't a competent leader but it doesn't sound like Owen Smith would be any better.

My worry is that Corbyn will be reelected as leader, lose the next election by a landslide but his loss will be blamed on a MSM conspiracy/Blairite rebellion. Corbyn will keep his job and the party will continue to commit suicide.

Perhaps, but I think Corbyn's work goes beyond just his own leadership - he's reclaiming the party for the left, which is why if he loses this leadership election another lefty won't get near a leadership ballot for at least 20-30 years. We'll be stuck with the sort of wishy washy, trying to appeal to everyone while actually appealing to no one politics that the public has overwhelmingly rejected.

I do think Corbyn probably plans to step down in the mid term future anyway, and give his backing to someone like Clive Lewis.
 
Perhaps, but I think Corbyn's work goes beyond just his own leadership - he's reclaiming the party for the left, which is why if he loses this leadership election another lefty won't get near a leadership ballot for at least 20-30 years. We'll be stuck with the sort of wishy washy, trying to appeal to everyone while actually appealing to no one politics that the public has overwhelmingly rejected.

I do think Corbyn probably plans to step down in the mid term future anyway, and give his backing to someone like Clive Lewis.

The problem is that public opinion has pushed right in the last decade or so. To move to the left in such a big leap isn't achievable. You need to appeal more centrist to get traction.
 
[TFU] Thegoon84;29810130 said:
I'm sorry I don't accept that, absolutely load of rubbish.

Less than 10% of the media accurately show his true agenda and policy ideas, then when you look at the Scum Express, Fail, Sun they show 0%.... So yes, the media are to blame, just look at the BBC Laura Kunsberg, the detest on her face when she even saying Corbyn looks like she's going to be sick!



Plus an extra 4million+ in the bank! Great.

Neither was any major party leader reported entirely without bias, some had it harder than others. But interacting through and with the media is part of the job description. When he's reported accurately he isn't cutting through -- that's another problem. And for all of the MPs that criticise him, even the left-leaning lot, to be so consistent in their narrative of frustration, it must be some conspiracy to hold up!

Even the academics he borrowed from are not really sure what their role in his 'movement' now is. Providing vaguely socialist material past its sell-by date to rallies in London? Momentum apparently don't care asserting that they're a social movement independent of Corbyn (and possibly Labour?). Deselecting over 2/3 of the PLP, getting in just about anyone vaguely Corbynista-aligned and hoping for the best with the same leader is not a plan -- it's living on a prayer.

He's like a blind captain in a severe storm sailing into a pack of sharks with full sail set while his crew engages in a drunken brawl over spoiled ham; his No 2 having resigned himself to the inevitable death with an introverted shrug and a mild bout of tourettes.:o

It's not a personality cult or student politics, guys, we're playing for real lives here and the country's parliamentary system and the country itself.

He has (well had to; I think he's out of chances now) to start delivering policy substance, landing blows against the government and retake media initiative through other people if not himself, or move on and be a quiet, albeit serially rebellious, constituency MP from Islington. There's nothing more to say. Under FPTP, you fight as a united party with a leader that commands its confidence and support, capable of drawing swing voters to the cause; it can't be done otherwise. We can all dream up a different world, a different politics and just one more chance, but someone has to crack on, and presently it's the Tories doing just that. Allowing them to shift the political centre over decades of uninterrupted power is surely not what anyone in Labour wants? Where'd it get them before? Pitiful.
 
The problem is that public opinion has pushed right in the last decade or so. To move to the left in such a big leap isn't achievable. You need to appeal more centrist to get traction.

Perhaps, but that's why it's even more important to present an alternative narrative rather than capitulating to the rightwards move and not making any progress. Let's not forget that Corbyn isn't even that left wing in the grand scheme of things, the vast majority of his actual policies are very popular amongst the public.
 
Jesus....have you guys still not sorted this rubbish out? How can a bunch of lefty nut jobs be expected to run the country when they can't even workout how to run their own party?
 
Perhaps, but that's why it's even more important to present an alternative narrative rather than capitulating to the rightwards move and not making any progress. Let's not forget that Corbyn isn't even that left wing in the grand scheme of things, the vast majority of his actual policies are very popular amongst the public.

I'll have to take your word on how left his policies are. Unfortunately, due to wanting to do things differently, he doesn't engage with the media, which means I don't hear about them. If the public don't hear about the policies and the overall narrative, then it's all pointless. Just doing them at support rallies isn't enough.
 
Jesus....have you guys still not sorted this rubbish out? How can a bunch of lefty nut jobs be expected to run the country when they can't even workout how to run their own party?

Put the Crayons down and do some research....

I just don't understand how his policies are Leftist? I didn't realise wanting to fight for the people is classed as leftist
 
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