North Seattle mass shooting, at least 4 dead

Tefal · 27 Sep 2016 at 01:45

Dicehunter said:
I wish aliens would visit en masse and say to the whole planet -

"Ok you are ALL a bunch of sick hairless killer apes, Either grow up or we're fencing off the entire earth and laying down dense death star like minefields all around your planet to stop you travelling and infecting anywhere else with your nut jobbery."

So your benevolent aliens are fans of brutal collective punishment, segregation and massive military operations targeted agressivly against poorer people?

They sound lovley

Dicehunter · 27 Sep 2016 at 01:47

Tefal said:
So your benevolent aliens are fans of brutal collective punishment, segregation and massive military operations targeted agressivly against poorer people?

They sound lovley

I may not have thought it all the way through

Amp34 · 27 Sep 2016 at 07:38

You mean human nature isn't just restricted to humans?

Sagalout · 27 Sep 2016 at 08:12

Americans in general seem to very much live in fear, be it of other Americans, bears or muslims. I'm not sure if a gun culture is a cause or effect of this state of fear, but it doesn't look like it's changing anytime soon.

I was watching a YouTube review of a motorcycle tank bag the other day and the American reviewer was talking about how his gun fitted perfectly. Quite bizarre for anyone that lives in the civilised world.

Orionaut · 27 Sep 2016 at 08:16

Amp34 said:
America pacified the natives 100 years ago, there really is little need for "defensive" weapons any more in the wilds of Montana (for example).

Weapons to defend against "critters" can be useful, although I believe it's proven that pepper spray is more effective against bears than a pistol firearm (which usually takes several shots to be remotely effective)*

If all these reasons were really that true Canada would have even more lax laws than the US regarding firearms(larger with significantly less people and far more wilderness)**. It doesn't, in fact they are stricter and gun ownership (especially handguns) is significantly lower, with a third of the gun ownership per capita (even though hunting is still very popular here, due to the amount of wildlife still around).

Also worth noting that Canada has far more dangerous mammals left than the US - 25,000 Grizzlies in Canada compared to around 1,500 in the Contiguous United States(excluding Alaska) for example.

You can get handgun licences for protection from wildlife in many provinces, but they really aren't common (usually for people working full time in the back country). Most people just carry pepper/bear spray, which itself is usually registered.

*http://www.fieldandstream.com/artic...pper-spray-instead-guns-stop-charging-grizzly

America and Canada are very different culturally and historically.

I cant remember the film, but in it a Mountie was describing to an American that the difference between Canada and the USA was that in Canada, the Law came first, (then the people).

IE People moving to Canada moved into a land where there was already an established rule of Law, This was less the case in the USA, Particularly in the mid west.

There is also the Migration profile, The US was colonised, especially to begin with, by strongly individualistic political and social misfits and various weird religious cults.

The Legacy of this lives on to this day.

As I said elsewhere, the surprising thing about the USA is that despite the history and the fact that personal firearms are probably more abundant than smart phones. It is mostly remarkably safe.

You are twice as likely to die by lightening strike than in a school shooting (Source, Micheal Moore, himself no gun fanatic) and provided you keep away from very clearly identifiable high risk areas, you are no more likely to be Murdered (By Gunfire or anything else) than you are across most of western Europe.Of course it hardly seems that a week goes by without some report of a mass shooting, but in a country with over 300 million people, Ready availability of firearms and dismal mental health issues. I am not surprised at how common these events are, I am astonished at how rare they are!

Freakbro · 27 Sep 2016 at 08:24

Tefal said:
I bet that used to confuse the **** out of people till somone invented guns.

Vulcan · 27 Sep 2016 at 09:53

Amp34 said:
Because years of training can be done in a few days, when it's decided the government is overbearing?

It was written that way because it worked a decade prior.

Amp34 · 27 Sep 2016 at 17:29

Orionaut said:
America and Canada are very different culturally and historically.

I cant remember the film, but in it a Mountie was describing to an American that the difference between Canada and the USA was that in Canada, the Law came first, (then the people).

IE People moving to Canada moved into a land where there was already an established rule of Law, This was less the case in the USA, Particularly in the mid west.

There is also the Migration profile, The US was colonised, especially to begin with, by strongly individualistic political and social misfits and various weird religious cults.

The Legacy of this lives on to this day.

As I said elsewhere, the surprising thing about the USA is that despite the history and the fact that personal firearms are probably more abundant than smart phones. It is mostly remarkably safe.

You are twice as likely to die by lightening strike than in a school shooting (Source, Micheal Moore, himself no gun fanatic) and provided you keep away from very clearly identifiable high risk areas, you are no more likely to be Murdered (By Gunfire or anything else) than you are across most of western Europe.Of course it hardly seems that a week goes by without some report of a mass shooting, but in a country with over 300 million people, Ready availability of firearms and dismal mental health issues. I am not surprised at how common these events are, I am astonished at how rare they are!

And my point is it's all historical. We live in the 21st century now and as even Trump points out gun crime is rampant to reduculous proportions relative to other developed nations.

Things change. Americans no longer need weapons to defend themselves against wild animals (hence that Canada reference) and it isn't the Wild West any more, so the "vastness" isn't really relevant. The rule of law now extends throughout the US.

The US had a culture of slavery and forced indentured servitude (as I pointed out) - it was even written into the constitution.* The US (well northern half) saw past that and realised a "modern" country (at the time) needed to change and so wrote an amendment banning it. The current gun laws are a historical hang up from a period long past and do not fit a 21st century setting.

*admittedly not explicitly, but there were clauses written in excluding some from the fundimental rights as a requirement for some states to ratify the constitution.

scorza · 27 Sep 2016 at 17:32

Amp34 said:
And my point is it's all historical. We live in the 21st century now and as even Trump points out gun crime is rampant to reduculous proportions relative to other developed nations.

You're more likely to be stabbed to death or beaten to death than being murdered with a rifle or a shotgun in the USA.

Amp34 · 27 Sep 2016 at 17:35

Amp34 · 27 Sep 2016 at 17:40

Also Orinaut, you keep arguing that the US is remarkably safe, but the statistics don't agree with you. What you're actually saying is the white suburbs and small town America is safe, where most people are relatively wealthy and have jobs. Much like the Uk though more crime occurs in more deprived areas, where people don't have steady jobs and relative poverty is "normal".

Do you regularly to in to those areas? Should we just ignore them and the people that live in them because they are out of sight, out of mind? Even though those areas contain a substantial proportion of the population?

Yeah it's remarkably safe as a tourist or well of white person... Because social inequality is to be lauded...

scorza · 27 Sep 2016 at 17:44

Amp34 said:
And?

Just mentioning it because gun control advocates mainly talk about banning AR-15s, but rifles aren't the problem - so why target that particular firearm? Then again I hope we both know that gun control advocates don't really care about saving people's lives...

Amp34 · 27 Sep 2016 at 17:50

There was me thinking gun control advocates were on about tightening up regulation on firearms in general.

And if it's not about saving lives, what is it about?

Rroff · 27 Sep 2016 at 17:52

scorza said:
Just mentioning it because gun control advocates mainly talk about banning AR-15s, but rifles aren't the problem - so why target that particular firearm? Then again I hope we both know that gun control advocates don't really care about saving people's lives...

The AR-15 platform is one of the more potent for causing carnage mind - reasonable accuracy/range, relatively easy to modify illegally for automatic fire and variants can be pretty light and easy to work around on the move, etc.

scorza · 27 Sep 2016 at 18:03

Amp34 said:
There was me thinking gun control advocates were on about tightening up regulation on firearms in general.

And if it's not about saving lives, what is it about?

What they're about is taking away guns from law-abiding citizens, though they aren't stupid enough to do that all at once - they'll start with AR-15s, then move onto handguns, then shotguns, then hunting rifles etc. Just like they did in the UK.

It's about smashing the patriarchy or something.

C.R.A.Z.Y · 27 Sep 2016 at 18:16

lawl scorza
You really do need a tin foil hat fella!
Everything seems to be a conspiracy to you

Largest study to date finds powerful evidence that gun control actually works

Until now, studies on gun laws have been limited to just one city or country, and have failed to reach consistent conclusions. But the new research took a broader view - the team reviewed 130 high-quality studies conducted in 10 countries over the past 60 years.

South Africa in 2000, the Firearm Control Act contained all these measures, and saw a 13.6 percent reduction in firearm homicides every single year for the next five years.

Australia in 1996 in the wake of a mass murder, and according to one study, overall firearm death rates decreased by 14 percent the following year. Tellingly, there also hasn't been another mass shooting in the country in the 20 years since.

2007, Missouri got rid of laws requiring people to have a permit to purchase a firearm. Following this legislation change, one study found that Missouri's homicide rate increased by 25 percent. No other changes in legislation appear to be able to explain the change.

Source = http://www.sciencealert.com/review-of-130-studies-finds-powerful-evidence-that-gun-control-works

Amp34 · 27 Sep 2016 at 18:27

I think the main discussion is about regulating gun laws. Things like forcing the regulation and registration of the transfer and purchase of weapons and tougher background checks, along with potentially removing the ability to own some weapons if there is no explicit purpose.

Just to point out, it's those law abiding citizens more criminals get their firearms from in the first place.

A June 2013 Institute of Medicine (IOM) report states that "[a]lmost all guns used in criminal acts enter circulation via initial legal transaction." [18] Between 2005 and 2010, 1.4 million guns were stolen from US homes during property crimes (including burglary and car theft), a yearly average of 232,400. [19] Ian Ayres, JD, PhD, and John J. Donohue, JD, PhD, Professors of Law at Yale Law School and Stanford Law School respectively, state, "with guns being a product that can be easily carried away and quickly sold at a relatively high fraction of the initial cost, the presence of more guns can actually serve as a stimulus to burglary and theft. Even if the gun owner had a permit to carry a concealed weapon and would never use it in furtherance of a crime, is it likely that the same can be said for the burglar who steals the gun?" [20]

http://gun-control.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=006205#18

Tougher regulation on the storage of weapons is probably a good idea too. I doubt many of those stolen weapons were stored in a gun safe...

And for the home defence argument

Of the 29,618,300 violent crimes committed between 2007 and 2011, 0.79% of victims (235,700) protected themselves with a threat of use or use of a firearm, the least-employed protective behavior. [16] In 2010 there were 230 "justifiable homicides" in which a private citizen used a firearm to kill a felon, compared to 8,275 criminal gun homicides (or, 36 criminal homicides for every "justifiable homicide"). [17] Of the 84,495,500 property crimes committed between 2007 and 2011, 0.12% of victims (103,000) protected themselves with a threat of use or use of a firearm. [16]

And source 16 is http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf pp12

Personally as much as mass shootings are shocking, and they sometimes occur with rifles it's handguns that are the main issue. Easier to hide, transport and no real useful purpose other than "defence" and "attack" of humans (as much as I'd like to own one for sport). Rifles and shotguns are practical tools - as seen by their more frequent availability in the UK for those that want one - and are less of an issue in the hands of a competent person. At the same time large magazines again have little practical purpose, you only need a few rounds to take down a single animal (preferably just one if you're actually competent with a firearm).

Rroff · 27 Sep 2016 at 18:32

Amp34 said:
At the same time large magazines again have little practical purpose, you only need a few rounds to take down a single animal (preferably just one if you're actually competent with a firearm).

Despite how it first seems magazine capacity doesn't really make much odds - especially in semi-automatic fire. Semi-auto versus automatic has much more implications. That said in most cases there isn't much requirement for larger magazines for target shooting, hunting or even home defence.

EDIT: Obviously you'd have to question the need for a drum mag and full auto heh.