Israeli soldier *murders* wounded Palestinian on camera, gets away with it maybe?

[h4rm0ny]

That is the antisemitism. And anti-zionism IS antisemitism. The fact some anti semites are clever enough to try and hide their abhorrent racism behind word play is laughable.

And here we get the pernicious concept of the self-hating Jew.
"Anti-Zionism is hatred of Jews".
"I'm Jewish and I'm against Zionism".
"You're not a real Jew / You're a self-hating Jew / You don't count for reason X"

Or

"I'm against Zionism but I have Jewish friends / partner"
"Then you're a hypocrite because you're self-contradicting."
"???????"

Basically, saying zionism == jewish and anti-zionism == anti-jewish is just an argument by assertion that the definition is what suits you. But neither history nor general consensus support that. Not least because Zionism is a modern invention and Jewish people have been around for most of recorded history.

 

[scorza]

Sometimes you can do two things at once. And sometimes, the answer to both questions can be the same as well. 9/11 was a response to the US military presence in Saudi Arabia where they keep in power a frankly nasty regime. Understanding that, the US could potentially have stopped propping up that regime and 9/11 would not have happened.

Honestly, for you to post that we should stop trying to understand the causes of terrorism and focus on stopping it is bizarrely self-contradictory. I think what you really mean is as a staunch holder of one viewpoint, you are angry about other people considering another.

As we now know from disasters in Iraq, Libya and Syria, keeping frankly nasty regimes in power is the lesser of two evils. 9/11 would have happened anyway imo - they hate us and want to kill us it's that simple. We have to stop making excuses for the terrorists - first 9/11 happened because of the US support for Saudi, then Madrid happened because Spain sent troops to Iraq, same for UK on 7/7, then Paris because of Charlie Hebdo, then Paris again because ???, now Berlin because ???. Enough is enough, time to start fighting back.

How can you have a war on a concept? How can you tell when you have defeated that concept? When did the US make a declaration of war against "terrorists"?

Sucks to a terrorist locked up in Guantánamo then doesn't it?

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

I'm not sure who said it but it's never been truer.

Tbh I'm less concerned about the other man's freedom fighter and very concerned about our terrorists.

 

[h4rm0ny]

What is Zionism? It's the idea that the Jewish people have a homeland in what is now modern Israel. If you oppose this, then you are clearly against the Jewish people. Because what are a people without a homeland; or are the Jews uniquely charged with having to live as immigrants in other peoples countries?

See, I really dislike you calling Jewish people "immigrants". Jewish people have just as much right to be considered British or German or French or Iranian as anyone else who was born in those countries. I find it rather prejudiced to say "oh, you're an immigrant". I mean, are you arguing it on religious belief grounds in which case most of the Jewish people I know wouldn't even qualify as they don't believe in God? And if you are, why does the Church of England get to decide that only it should be a "native" religion of Britain when there are other religions (including Judaism) that have been in this country longer. Or alternately you're arguing it on ancestry grounds in which case you'd have to conduct Nazi-style ancestry enquiries because every "Jewish" person in this country has non-Jewish ancestry as well and probably half the "non-Jewish" people have some Jewish ancestry in theirs. Religion or genetics - either way, it doesn't add up as consistent or sensible.

And we haven't even got started on the idea that a group gets to displace another group that is already living there and has done so longer.

I really recommend that book I linked to earlier: The Invention of the Jewish People. It's a very good and well-researched book.

Palestinians meanwhile are just Arab settlers, squatting on Israeli land.

Nasty and also just assumes its conclusion in its argument. A double loss, imo.

If you genuinely believe that everyone who criticizes Israeli foreign-policy or speaks in defence of Palestinians is anti-Semitic, then I truly pity you because the world must seem a terrible place to you.

 

[prosk]

The reason they attack soft targets like airports and train stations is primarily because they hate us and want to kill us all, or at least subjugate us, by committing civilian massacres they look strong which attracts recruits. Secondarily it's also because if they attack hard targets they'll lose and look weak.

Their holy war is a fact and nothing we can do will stop that - except by defeating it. I ask you what's the point of a 'fair and balanced' judicial system if it ensures its replacement with Sharia law, which is anything but.

You think the British Government will allow Sharia Law to pass? You're using the fear of an impossibility to justify your irrational hatred.

The war is a fact because we started it, and it'll never be over as long as we keep fueling it.

 

[scorza]

You think the British Government will allow Sharia Law to pass? You're using the fear of an impossibility to justify your irrational hatred.

The war is a fact because we started it, and it'll never be over as long as we keep fueling it.

For the last few decades the British government has been actively promoting Sharia Law in the UK e.g. permitting Sharia courts, tolerating Sharia no-go zones - so why not if we let them?

No we didn't start the war on terror. It's a question of how far back you want to go in history but I think a reasonable start point would be the jihadi declaration of a call to arms on 11th September 2001.

 

[platypus]

Basically, saying zionism == jewish and anti-zionism == anti-jewish is just an argument by assertion that the definition is what suits you. But neither history nor general consensus support that. Not least because Zionism is a modern invention and Jewish people have been around for most of recorded history.

Not to mention that its only revisionist/modern Judaism that considers Zionism to be acceptable. Orthodoxy considers it both a betrayal of the religion and the three oaths of the Talmud.

 

[IronWarrior]

In all the videos I seen him, he's smiling so big. Unbelievable.

 

[doodah]

Whilst it may divide Israel, this is pretty black and white.

I *think* shortly after the incident, they tried to claim he was worried about the attacker detonating a bomb which was quickly challenged as to why he didn't warn any one or follow normal procedures.

But his defence? I thought he was dead - didn't work. Okay - I felt threatened then. If the IDF are pursuing charges and a conviction, it probably means something. It's far from over as they are appealing and Bibi is firmly on the soldier's side.

 

[prosk]

For the last few decades the British government has been actively promoting Sharia Law in the UK e.g. permitting Sharia courts, tolerating Sharia no-go zones - so why not if we let them?

No we didn't start the war on terror. It's a question of how far back you want to go in history but I think a reasonable start point would be the jihadi declaration of a call to arms on 11th September 2001.

Which was the result of decades of western intervention in the Middle-East, which we still continue to do. Do you expect that we can cause chaos in other countries, destroying people's lives in the process, without any repercussions?

 

[gandhi]

For the last few decades the British government has been actively promoting Sharia Law in the UK e.g. permitting Sharia courts?

No, they really haven't. Don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail;

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/independent-review-into-sharia-law-launched

It's not in the interest of the Politicians, Weapons companies etc etc etc to bring about an end to the current religious conflict and disharmony. People profit from the politics of fear and from war, on all sides.

Sadly, people believe the hate and lies they are fed (on all sides!) that are used to control, distract, manipulate and exploit the populations of all countries.

 

[h4rm0ny]

No, they really haven't. Don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail;

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/independent-review-into-sharia-law-launched

It's not in the interest of the Politicians, Weapons companies etc etc etc to bring about an end to the current religious conflict and disharmony. People profit from the politics of fear and from war, on all sides.

Sadly, people believe the hate and lies they are fed (on all sides!) that are used to control, distract, manipulate and exploit the populations of all countries.

Actually, in some parts of the UK the government, whilst not actually promoting Sharia, has very much turned a blind eye to it. Actually, if you include local government and don't just presume it means Westminster, then scorza has a point as some areas are now pretty strongly dominated by Islamic proponents. If you come to Luton for example, I think you'd be pretty shocked.

So whilst most of what Scorza has been pushing in this thread I disagree with (obviously, as I've been arguing with them), that doesn't mean that we don't have a very big problem with growing Islamification of the UK. Including the presence of Sharia courts in some Northern towns.

No, that doesn't mean I agree with Scorza when they go off on one about citing Geneva Conventions in relation to a "war on terror" or cheerlead executions of Palestinians, but even a stopped **** can be right once a day.

 

[dowie]

The Jewish people are not just a religious group, in fact many Jews are not even religious. Jews are a distinct ethnic group by any measure of the term.

Doesn't make any difference, ethnic in so far as culture is concerned but they're still mostly Europeans. Your anti semetism argument is still flawed.

 

[Roar87]

Israel are committing war crimes, they're not challenged on it because there are a lot of Jewish and some non-Jewish pro-Israeli people with lots of power in Western media and Politics. They're also one of our close allies in the Middle East, which is a key area in our geopolitical war against Russian and Chinese influence and controlling natural resources out there. Muslims and Jews in the Middle East basically hate each other as well, they both consider each other as subhuman, so they have no issue in killing each other and covering it up.

 

[zoomee]

This article is far closer to the truth than what the mainstream media makes out about the situation in 'Israel'.

http://mondoweiss.net/2017/01/terrorism-israeli-state/

Our topic is of course the so-called “conflict” in Israel-Palestine, a tragedy that has dragged on for so long that it feels static, indeed almost normalised. But unlike other deadly conflicts, this one is wholly in our power to stop—“our” meaning the United States and Europe. It is in our power to stop it, because we are the ones empowering it.

We are now approaching the centennial of the British Original Sin in this tragedy, the Balfour Declaration. The British role in Palestine was a case of ‘hit & run’: The Balfour Declaration, in which the British gave away other people’s land, was the hit; and thirty years later, Resolution 181—Partition—was the run, leaving the Palestinians abandoned in a ditch.

- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2017/01/terrorism-israeli-state/#sthash.pb6CKeW6.dpuf

We the British have a lot to account for in this conflict as it was primarily the Balfour Declaration that the zionist terrorist groups Irgun and co used to justify their invasion of Palestine to start with.

We then sat aside when the doodoo hit the fan (in good old British colonial style) and let the rest of the world duke it out in that area.

The reality is that Israel was born from zionist terrorist groups. The rest is plain simple occupation of land that does not belong to them. Palestine was always a land for all three abrahamic religions - NOT just for judiasm as the Israeli's try to make it out.

Thompson_NCL is simply a christian zionist. He (amongst many christians here) believe in the return of Jesus and it is claimed this will not happen until the land of 'Israel' is established, according to both muslim and christian prophecies. Lets bring on the apocolypse is the ideology thats pushed to christians these days. They completely forget that their own christian brothers and sisters are being laid to waste and forced out of the Holy Land by the IDF in the same way the muslims are. Palestinians are christian, muslim and jewish in origin - no single religion can claim priority over another in this land.

did you know the first ever suicide bomber in the area was a jewish female kid? - She killed over 20 palestinians on a bus strapped with a bomb. And funnily enough the Israeli's are now crying "terrorist" after starting all this and continuing to expand its 'settlements'. Only democracy in the middle-east my butt.

 

[h4rm0ny]

Muslims and Jews in the Middle East basically hate each other as well, they both consider each other as subhuman, so they have no issue in killing each other and covering it up.

Not universally. For example, plenty of Jewish and Muslim people being neighbourly together in Iran. And of course plenty of individual friendships. Muslim and Jewish people are no less capable of separating politics from friendship and Zionist from Jewish than we are.

 

[zoomee]

Israel are committing war crimes, they're not challenged on it because there are a lot of Jewish and some non-Jewish pro-Israeli people with lots of power in Western media and Politics. They're also one of our close allies in the Middle East, which is a key area in our geopolitical war against Russian and Chinese influence and controlling natural resources out there. Muslims and Jews in the Middle East basically hate each other as well, they both consider each other as subhuman, so they have no issue in killing each other and covering it up.

I have to disagree with this. Middle-eastern Muslims and Jews lived in peace for centuries even after the crusades. It's only since this 'mass migration of european jews" that the hatred started. The evidence is the largest jewish community (outside of Israel) living bang in the middle of the Iranians. They are neighbours and the iranian jews are loyal to their country more so than some muslim iranians!

You should see what the israeli's teach their kids about the arabs - its pure hatred, as evidenced by the jewish community themselves:

Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

http://www.wrmea.org/1999-september...and-hatred-toward-palestinians-and-arabs.html

Hatred of Arabs is part of the test of loyalty and identity that the state gives its Jewish citizens. A good Jew hates Arabs. A loyal Israeli will leave an Arab to die, because "he's an Arab." And someone who isn't like that, as we know, "sleeps with Arabs."

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/a-good-jew-hates-arabs-1.459832

 

[Rroff]

In all the videos I seen him, he's smiling so big. Unbelievable.

Its kind of odd - he doesn't seem to be acting out of revenge or threat perception in the videos - also doesn't seem to be around when the guy was moving so wonder if he thought the guy was already dead and putting one into him to big himself up/out of contempt (not the kind of personality you'd want in your armed forces).

 

[IronWarrior]

Its kind of odd - he doesn't seem to be acting out of revenge or threat perception in the videos - also doesn't seem to be around when the guy was moving so wonder if he thought the guy was already dead and putting one into him to big himself up/out of contempt (not the kind of personality you'd want in your armed forces).

The guy murdered the guy full stop and it seems this happens often too, the only difference between this time and all the other times is that it got caught on video, just like all the cop shooting innocent people in the US, they only getting caught because cameras are everywhere now.

 

[Roar87]

I have to disagree with this. Middle-eastern Muslims and Jews lived in peace for centuries even after the crusades. It's only since this 'mass migration of european jews" that the hatred started. The evidence is the largest jewish community (outside of Israel) living bang in the middle of the Iranians. They are neighbours and the iranian jews are loyal to their country more so than some muslim iranians!

I'll stand corrected on that point then

 

[hornetstinger]

Being 'fair and balanced' to the terrorists is working out so well at defeating the latest global jihadi wave hasn't it? We need to stop trying to figure out what these terrorists want all the time, what we should do is figure out how to stop them.

Glad to see that President Trump will stop the dangerous prisoner releases from Guantanamo Bay. Expect that place to get full again quick.

If I was a peaceful Irishman, and the English carpet bombed my town because of a few IRA, and killed hundreds of civlians, I would take up arms against the English as well.