Save the NHS!

SexyGreyFox said:
but we need them now
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Exactly. Everyone knows we should be aiming for long term fixes but fact is that the decision makers or even the NHS will likely not last long enough to achieve those long term fixes if we completely disregard the short term.

I think changing the way funding works would help signfiicantly.

Currently:

Outside EU students receive pay the full amount on medical courses

Students in the EU and UK pay a much smaller tuition due to the cost being subsidised by the universities and the NHS.

The problem lies with new young doctors going private or leaving for places like New Zealand and Australia after having their training part paid for by the NHS as well as EU students not being encouraged to stay here after qualifying. If funding which subsidised tuition for students was conditional it would at least fill the need for junior doctors and aim at filling the gaps in the mid term while keeping costs down to survive to fix long term shortages.

By conditional funding i mean that the funding to subsidise the course is offered as a loan (the funding currently paid by the NHS) which is partially or fully paid back depending on your earning after you qualify but the loan is paid off significantly quicker or is void after x years of working for the NHS for x amount of hours per year. This method of funding tuition will not discriminate between poor or richer students and if a sufficiently appealing job offer comes along, qualified new doctors are welcome to take it and it will pay back the cost of their training as they earn.

For Example:

If:
Tuition for a overseas student costs £35k per year
UK Student costs them £20k a year with the rest funded by the NHS

A UK student would have to pay the tuition with the current loan system and have an additional loan of 15k from the NHS. They this additional loan is voided after x time at the NHS or is paid back at a rate of x% of their pay if working privately or overseas.

This way you know money the NHS spends training doctors will either be paid back in work hours immediately after qualification or as a percentage of pay. Currently the NHS just pays the cost and we 'hope' that these UK students end up in the NHS.
 
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Tefal said:
If you've got a leaky hose you need to use do you order a new one and temporarily patch it till it arrives or do you just keep patching forever until the whole thing falls apart?
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That's not the NHS way my friend. You and your crazy solutions! Actually fix the problem? Crazy!
 
Tefal said:
so why not just open those "fully funded" places to uk students who want to take them?
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If your replying to my post:

To guarantee they end up in the NHS but still give them the freedom to work elsewhere if they pay the money back. If we offer fully funded courses on the condition they HAVE to stay in the NHS, we would have people shouting about NHS management abusing their contracted workers who have no choice but to stay. The NHS would come under fire and ew people would want to train as doctors.

You need to give people the option to not work for the NHS while giving incentive to do their time.
 
deuse said:
The main Doctor+1 are full time. I thought all GP surgeries posted their earnings on there web site?
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That's a mean figure of all the GPs including those part time and also locums.. It's pretty misleading/meaningless.

Full time as a GP is normally 8 sessions (4 days) which is normally north of 100k as a partner.
 
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Minstadave said:
Are you looking at the 90k for ten sessions? That's easily available as a salaried GP.
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Yes it is if you do 10 sessions -- how many GPS do you know do that? 8 sessions is considered full time for a reason. Equivalent to 4 long days every week when converted to the hospital on call hours. I start 7 finish 7. I dropped my 9th session.

Also it's easy if you are getting 9k a session. That's possible in areas struggling to recruit e.g east Midlands where you work. Go anywhere else the starting £/session is much lower especially if you've just finished training.

As you know there are many more reasons aside from pay as to why gp - particularly salaried gp recruitment is an issue. Why do most gps go locum?
 
Buddy said:
Yes it is if you do 10 sessions -- how many GPS do you know do that? 8 sessions is considered full time for a reason. Equivalent to 4 long days every week when converted to the hospital on call hours. I start 7 finish 7. I dropped my 9th session.

Also it's easy if you are getting 9k a session. That's possible in areas struggling to recruit e.g east Midlands where you work. Go anywhere else the starting £/session is much lower especially if you've just finished training.

As you know there are many more reasons aside from pay as to why gp - particularly salaried gp recruitment is an issue. Why do most gps go locum?
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I don't disagree with anything you've said. I was dimpling pointing out them at the idea of taking the 90k/10 session package being touted for foreign GPs and offering it to U.K GPs is pointless, that's already available to them.

Locum GP work is the way forwards to my eye (I'm not a GP though) - flexibility, best rates of pay,less admin, plenty of demand. Just eye watering indemnity and very expensive to the NHS.
 
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Minstadave said:
I don't disagree with anything you've said. I was dimpling pointing out them at the idea of taking the 90k/10 session package being touted for foreign GPs and offering it to U.K GPs is pointless, that's already available to them.

Locum GP work is the way forwards to my eye (I'm not a GP though) - flexibility, best rates of pay,less admin, plenty of demand. Just eye watering indemnity and very expensive to the NHS.
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But is it 10 sessions? Couldn't link original article as on mobile. From telegraph
 
Not sure, not looked into it much, just saw it mentioned above.

Even if it's 8 sessions that's what 11k a session? Still doable in the hard to employ areas currently. Which is where they'll be recruiting these guys into.

Edit: The telegraph article doesn't state a number of sessions.
 
TBH i can see the need for specialised doctors to be recruited from where we can get them to fill the short term gaps. I am not saying that should be the only plan, of course we need to have a mid a long term gap without it costing a bomb. It can be done but you need to **** off at least some groups of people.
 
Minstadave said:
Not sure, not looked into it much, just saw it mentioned above.

Even if it's 8 sessions that's what 11k a session? Still doable in the hard to employ areas currently. Which is where they'll be recruiting these guys into.

Edit: The telegraph article doesn't state a number of sessions.
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Long night shift Dave? :p
11k/session what on the moon? Lol

But yes agree hopefully they are indeed employing these individuals into those areas. Though why not offer it to home grown doctors? We know how there's a wide range in the quality of doctors coming from abroad.
 
Minstadave said:
That's a mean figure of all the GPs including those part time and also locums.. It's pretty misleading/meaningless.

Full time as a GP is normally 8 sessions (4 days) which is normally north of 100k as a partner.
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From there site

"GP Net Earnings
All GP Practices are required to declare the mean earnings (e.g. average pay) for GPs working to deliver NHS services to patients at each practice.


The average pay for GPs working in the Medical Centre in the last financial year was £64,880 before tax and National Insurance.
This is for 3 full time GPs and 5 part time GP's who worked in the Practice for more than six months"
 
Buddy said:
Long night shift Dave? :p
11k/session what on the moon? Lol

But yes agree hopefully they are indeed employing these individuals into those areas. Though why not offer it to home grown doctors? We know how there's a wide range in the quality of doctors coming from abroad.
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Several jobs around here north of 10k a session in recent months. 11k a session isn't unheard of. Though it's usually the more deprived inner city roles where they're desperate.
 
deuse said:
From there site

"GP Net Earnings
All GP Practices are required to declare the mean earnings (e.g. average pay) for GPs working to deliver NHS services to patients at each practice.


The average pay for GPs working in the Medical Centre in the last financial year was £64,880 before tax and National Insurance.
This is for 3 full time GPs and 5 part time GP's who worked in the Practice for more than six months"
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Sounds about right, three full time on £100k a year, the 5 part timers on £50k a year (this is where it gets complicated as part time varies hugely in GP) and the average is just over £65k.
 
Minstadave said:
Sounds about right, three full time on £100k a year, the 5 part timers on £50k a year (this is where it gets complicated as part time varies hugely in GP) and the average is just over £65k.
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In my opinion Doctors should be on £2,000 a week minimum.
And Nursing staff should be on a £1,000 a week minimum.
 
deuse said:
In my opinion Doctors should be on £2,000 a week minimum.
And Nursing staff should be on a £1,000 a week minimum.
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The electorate are not willing to pay for it, the same as they are not prepared to pay more for many other public services.

In the midst of all of the debate on the latest ongoing NHS crisis, there was little if any discussion on how to fund increased NHS expenditure, and what little discussion there was centred around cuts to other department budgets to free up the money.

Nobody wants that extra 2% on income tax or National Insurance. Far easier to talk about 'reducing waste' or 'cut foreign aid' because then it is somebody else's problem to solve.
 
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