Australian parenting - No Jab, no play and no rebate

[Avenged7Fold]

Sorry. Medicine itself is the ultimate danger to human civilisation. It's literally weakening humanity. We have evolved for an exponentially longer time without medicine than we have with medicine. What this does is create a dependence on it. In exchange for temporary emotion suppression, we have started to sustain humanity artificially.

A stupid argument, we have evolved for an exponentially longer time on four legs, dependence on two wont be our undoing...

There is far more than 'survival of the fittest' at play here. Herd immunity has led to the eradication of some of the biggest killers of all time in western societies and we are capable of pushing many of these vaccinations to the remaining affected worse areas, essentially keeping chances of the diseases flourishing to a minimum.

In just the last 100 years, humanity has built up an utterly disastrous dependence on medicine. Heck a lot of humans can barely reproduce without advanced medical intervention anymore! I saw a giraffe give birth with nothing the other day.

There are a greater percentage of humans who would normally not be able to have children without modern medicine but that does not mean we have less people able to reproduce without it. There are just as many if not more fertile genes in the pool thanks to modern medicine allowing people to survive.

The problem with artificially sustaining humanity is that technology will not last forever and it's only available to people with MONEY. If only 2 people have built a natural immunity to some deadly disease, I'd rather every other human being die and those people reproduce, rather than keeping everyone alive by constantly being pumped full of barely tested drugs just so we can milk this Earth and it's resources for an extra 5-10 years.

Stupid, allowing a disease to flourish seals the fate of further generations even when their ancestors have immunity. If genes of immunity passed on the way you wished, we would never had to deal with highly infectious diseases like polio that were rife in the first half of the 20th century. People with immunity to effects or resistances still pass the infection on and survive but their children may not and they would still be at risk when they their immune systems are compromised in the many number of ways they can be. Why give diseases the breeding ground to change and evolve? Resistant strains do not evolve because we use drugs, they evolve because we the non resistant strains dont survive the drugs and we stupidly create of ideal environments for these resistant diseases to flourish through poor hygiene - such as poorly cleaned hospitals.

Also there's a bit of a paradox here: If you're immune, why do you even care about non-immune people? Being immune doesn't mean you cant transmit the disease. It just means your body can identify and purge an infection. How often do you think you are exposed to the diseases you're "vaccinated" against?

There is no paradox. Being immunised does not mean you cant get the disease, you can still get it and are much more likely to if you allow everyone who doesn't have a natural resistance to the disease to get it. You can also still be effected from the disease very badly depending on the state of your body at the time. Purging the disease quickly and before the very infectious symptoms kick in, heavily reduces the spread of the disease.

If your logic was correct we would still have the odd cases of polio in the UK every year. but NHS says there hasn't been a case in the uk since 1984. we are very much well within our power to wipe it out completely.

But how are "other peoples children" being endangered? Surely you have to assume the immunisation works lol

You can only assume you're endangered if you also assume that the vaccine was pointless.

People who are immuno-compromised cant get vaccinations. Herd immunisation helps them massively. People can always become Immuno-compromised even with vaccinations and die from these diseases. Surely you should know everything isnt so black and white that you can make idiotic sweeping statements that can be proven wrong with a google. Vaccinated people can still suffer the effects of a diseases but do so in much lower proportions. The effectiveness of herd immunisation increases exponentially at the upper end of of the scale due to the way diseases spread, there is plenty of real life data out there on it.

 

[Vonhelmet]

This is what happens when people choose to listen to glamour models instead of scientists.

 

[Edrof]

I am Australian, I live in Australia, and I support this fantastic policy, which is fully endorsed by the overwhelming majority of Australians.

If only there was medicine for those afflicted with being Australian.

*Sips tea and dreams of the Empire*

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

I am Australian, I live in Australia, and I support this fantastic policy, which is fully endorsed by the overwhelming majority of Australians.

It's disappointing that it's getting short thrift on this side of the Tasman, at least from those currently in power. It's also quite rare that I agree with something coming from that side of the Tasman so consider me doubly annoyed :/

 

[deuse]

I am not a father and am the better for it to judge it from a neutral point of view.

If you was with a lady that already had a child that was not yours. Then yes you would be neutral.

 

[Sankari]

If only there was medicine for those afflicted with being Australian.

*Sips tea and dreams of the Empire*

Beware, I'm also a British citizen! Don't make me come back over there...

 

[Avenged7Fold]

I have been with a lady who had a very young child (i think too young for vaccinations) and she was against vaccination. You know what? Made me feel sorry for the child and i hope that she changed her mind. Before then i probably held a more removed view of 'if they want to mess the kid up, let them' but as i grew older and have more contact with nieces and nephews, i cant help but feel sorry for kids that inherit the cause of their parents mistakes.

 

[Sankari]

Sorry. Medicine itself is the ultimate danger to human civilisation. It's literally weakening humanity. We have evolved for an exponentially longer time without medicine than we have with medicine. What this does is create a dependence on it. In exchange for temporary emotion suppression, we have started to sustain humanity artificially.

You are fractally wrong, and this muddled paragraph makes no sense at all. The rest of your post is equally vapid.

 

[Itchytrigg]

Sadly, there are people like this that exist.

 

[Eddie]

I don't understand how not having your child vaccinated is dangerous to other children who are vaccinated.

I do understand parents being cautious about vaccinations though, as you have to have a lot of faith that the various governments/organisations/medical bodies are actually telling you the truth.

Do we all trust the various governments/organisations/medical bodies to tell us 100% truth 100% of the time?

Not sure I do.

 

[Dis86]

I don't understand how not having your child vaccinated is dangerous to other children who are vaccinated.

I do understand parents being cautious about vaccinations though, as you have to have a lot of faith that the various governments/organisations/medical bodies are actually telling you the truth.

Do we all trust the various governments/organisations/medical bodies to tell us 100% truth 100% of the time?

Not sure I do.

Something tells me you're not a doctor...

 

[Eddie]

I'm a dab hand with a staple gun

 

[Angilion]

I don't understand how not having your child vaccinated is dangerous to other children who are vaccinated.

Then learn. It's not obscure knowledge. It's been stated several times in this thread alone.

I do understand parents being cautious about vaccinations though, as you have to have a lot of faith that the various governments/organisations/medical bodies are actually telling you the truth.

No, you don't. You have to have some knowledge and/or be able to make deductions from observations and you have to not believe in perfectly concealed secret global conspiracies using unknown technology.

Knowledge: The existence of germs. The existence of an immune system. The ability of the immune system to recognise a germ and manufacture a specific antibody to it.

Observation: Pandemics of highly contagious diseases are vastly less common than at any time prior to mass vaccination. Or do you think that the perfect global conspiracy has faked historical records, tens of thousands of graveyards and the memories of many millions of people? Without anyone noticing, obviously.

Deduction: Something has had an enormous effect on the diseases that are targetted by mass vaccination. Knowledge of germs and immune systems tells us that vaccination is a viable explanation for that reduction. The alternative explanation is that the perfect global conspiracy has unknown technology that has that effect on those diseases, deploys it in almost all of the world and then also deploys vaccination for...what? Mind control?

Do we all trust the various governments/organisations/medical bodies to tell us 100% truth 100% of the time?

Not sure I do.

Nobody does. Fortunately, that's irrelevant to vaccination. All you need to do is not trust the various politicians and businesses that gain money and power from campaigning against medicine to tell you 100% truth 100% of the time.

 

[Werewolf]

I don't understand how not having your child vaccinated is dangerous to other children who are vaccinated.

o.

Vaccinations aren't 100% effective at providing immunity, and for various groups who may have a lowed immune system for one reason or another (people on certain medications, people with underlying illnesses and the elderly for example), even having had a vaccine they are still vulnerable to it.
But if you have enough people immune to the disease it can't spread easily, and that is the key and the percentage with immunity required to protect the population as a whole varies with the disease (things that spread easily need more people to be protected to stop it from becoming a major issue).

For example one of the worst outbreaks of measles (I think it was) in the US in recent times was traced back to an infected visitor at a theme park in an area where the overall immunisation rate was lower than average, the result was something like 100+ people caught it from that brief exposure, if the immunisation levels had been lower and there wasn't the healthcare available the number of infected would have been far higher and there would have been a large number of deaths and lesser after effects from it.
I believe the CDC were called in to assist in tracking down those infected/work out why there was a sudden spike in infected in the area.

In short your child be vaccinated on his/her own may not be an issue if say 98% of the rest of the people in the area are protected, but if say a third of his/her class are not vaccinated you've got massive potential for an infection to spread fast (think norovirus on a cruise ship), let alone if a third of the population as a whole are not protected.
The health systems can cope with small outbreaks and individual cases and provide the care needed, but if you start seeing even just a small percentage of the population getting a lot of the illnesses we vaccinate for, you will rapidly overload the medical resources and see a lot of people dying.


Going back a few years, one of my mothers friends was in her 90's and the only one of her immediate family to have survived the flu epidemic of 1919, from memory her siblings and parents all died from it (I think she had 2 sisters and brother or something).
Unfortunately as people like her, who lived through such an epidemic and know first hand how deadly a lot diseases are die due to old age, the younger generations who haven't lived with the reality of things like Polio and smallpox don't appreciate the risks and reasons for a full vaccination program.

 

[EddScott]

Sadly, there are people like this that exist.

I used to live next to a couple who were both paramedics.

They flatly refused to give their child the MMR vaccine for the autism reason.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

1-I don't understand how not having your child vaccinated is dangerous to other children who are vaccinated.

2-I do understand parents being cautious about vaccinations though, as you have to have a lot of faith that the various governments/organisations/medical bodies are actually telling you the truth.

3-Do we all trust the various governments/organisations/medical bodies to tell us 100% truth 100% of the time?

Not sure I do.

1- Vaccinated people can become immunocomprimised and some people simply cant get vaccinated due to their situation (pregnent, poor immune system due to blah blah blah). As the percentage of people who are vaccinated approach 100%, vaccinations become exponentially more effective in stop the spread of disease and eventually making it so incidences are very isolated. So there is many less of the unlucky few who are vaccinated but do develop the illness.

2.Governments refer to medical bodies who are independent and pier reviewed.

3.Those medical bodies are not all in on it, as they are scrutinised by each other. Studies and tests are heavily reviewed by other medical professionals and has to be in line with strict standards and guidelines. Getting a vaccine like MMR to where it is now was not as easy as having a team in a lab send it to a government office who gave it a rubber stamp.

I used to live next to a couple who were both paramedics.

They flatly refused to give their child the MMR vaccine for the autism reason.

Selfish paranoia. They must think as paramedics they have some sort of inside knowledge (for some reason) that trumps studies by professionals who actually spend lives researching the stuff and if not, well 'if everyone else is vaccinated, then my kid has a very low chance anyway'.

They essentially give into paranoia and selfishly rely on other parents doing the right thing (or risk their childs health) for their peace of mind.

 

[Eddie]

Then learn. It's not obscure knowledge. It's been stated several times in this thread alone.

I was only asking the question, thankfully other people explained it.

No, you don't. You have to have some knowledge and/or be able to make deductions from observations and you have to not believe in perfectly concealed secret global conspiracies using unknown technology.

Yes I do, I can understand parents being unsure and cautious. I certainly would be if I was in the same position.

Not every parent that has a concern is a conspiracy nut job. It's you that doesn't understand their position.

 

[ShortWarning]

I would be in favour of it being made law.

My kids are immunised.

I cannot get into the heads of parents who refuse to vaccinate their children. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

The way i see it is you are deciding to put your faith in either:

1. Countless pier reviewed medical studies, research made by independent companies and further approved by the government who are separate to those entities previously mentioned

2. a claim which has been constantly debunked and proved wrong many times over.

If you choose the second, surely you are a tooting some sort of conspiracy or are massively ill informed on how vaccines work...

 

[Eddie]

Well, from just reading an NHS site alone they state that ''most side-effects of vaccines are mild''.

That statement alone would raise a few concerns for me, nothing to do with anything 'conspiracy'.