Shots fired outside parliament - Please refrain from speculative and antagonistic posts

[adolf hamster]

That seems to be the problem (not aimed at you Rifte) the rhetoric of "we need to do something" is swiftly followed in general by "I have no ideas" or "trump it up".

its a shame this new kind of "warfare" doesnt seem to have a government behind it, at least then we'd have an organisation we could reason with, find out why so many people are finding motivations to do this sort of thing and then work out what we're doing to **** them off.

 

[adolf hamster]

No I did not state that anyone was doing it wrong. My post was echoing my frustration with the current events and that there is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

You can read and understand English?

can you? i'm pointing out, as mynight said, that there's no point telling us there's a problem, criticising the current methods employed to deal with it, and then not suggesting an alternative solution.

 

[Rifte]

That seems to be the problem (not aimed at you Rifte) the rhetoric of "we need to do something" is swiftly followed in general by "I have no ideas" or "trump it up".

Any solution I have it not a solution :

1)Do nothing......light a few candles
2)Engage in a war again which we can't win.
3)Ban all Muslims indefinitely from Western countries.

 

[Mynight]

its a shame this new kind of "warfare" doesnt seem to have a government behind it, at least then we'd have an organisation we could reason with, find out why so many people are finding motivations to do this sort of thing and then work out what we're doing to **** them off.

Would certainly makes things easier. Whilst I suspect that our involvement in wars has contributed I don't expect this to be the only reason, I wouldn't be overly surprised if some just hate our way of life. Not really much we can do to reason with that mindset.

Any solution I have it not a solution :

1)Do nothing......light a few candles
2)Engage in a war again which we can't win.
3)Ban all Muslims indefinitely from Western countries.

It's annoying isn't it. Would be quite nice to have a solution to solve this but there's too many factors to make any single solution viable.

Callously I think we should be thankful its such a rare occurrence here if that's due to our borders/ security services/something else I have no idea.

Sadly I expect more overreaching security powers to come from this rather.

 

[adolf hamster]

Would certainly makes things easier. Whilst I suspect that our involvement in wars has contributed I don't expect this to be the only reason, I wouldn't be overly surprised if some just hate our way of life. Not really much we can do to reason with that mindset.

it is tricky, the thing that worries me is this business of folk from here being radicalised, what is it that's so wrong with our society that people think it's that bad?

 

[Rifte]

It's annoying isn't it. Would be quite nice to have a solution to solve this but there's too many factors to make any single solution viable.

I am just incredibly angry with the current status quo and the impact this has on families.

As to why they do this, I can only guess but it's a combination of a couple of things IMO.

1)Current and previous foreign policy/intervention
2)Western values predominantly exist in a Christian environment. In short from a majority viewpoint we are not followers of Islam.

If there was a solution it would have been executed by now. The point is no one knows how to tackle this.

 

[Mynight]

I can understand being angry. Personally I am angry so many innocents have lost their lives on both sides for nothing gained from what I can tell.

it is tricky, the thing that worries me is this business of folk from here being radicalised, what is it that's so wrong with our society that people think it's that bad?

Sadly I don't know enough about Islam to really answer that. Very ignorantly I think homosexuality is seen a sin, alcohol is seen a sin(edit: quick Google proves my ignorance. It is a sin but not prohibited), non subservient women, which we don't have any issues with at all (on the whole). Maybe some just can't handle that the word of god is so blatantly ignored by so many. Or it may be those who believe such things that take advantage of those I speak of below.

I suspect anyone who would commit things like this have other problems to begin with as such are probably not that hard to radicalise(before anyone gets stroppy no I'm not throwing all the blame behind mental health issues).

 

[Deleted member 68110]

That seems to be the problem (not aimed at you Rifte) the rhetoric of "we need to do something" is swiftly followed in general by "I have no ideas" or "trump it up".

Tackle extremist divisive rhetoric in all forms and minimise the risk of these losers spiraling off within their (Daesh-"inspired"/Neo-Nazi/whatever other rightwing extremist) echo-chambers down a rabbit hole of the logically fallacious arguments that justify the hatred and dismissal of others that allows the scumbags to rationalise these acts of hate.

The problem is that a lot of people are so dumb and intellectually restricted, the scope of solutions they can envisage comprises the pages of the Daily Mail, and the films of Gerald Butler and Jason Statham.

Both sources not worried about the truth so much as profiting from manipulating emotion. As such they're actually part of the problem.

 

[adolf hamster]

Sadly I don't know enough about Islam to really answer that. Very ignorantly I think homosexuality is seen a sin, alcohol is seen a sin, non subservient women, which we don't have any issues with at all (on the whole). Maybe some just can't handle that the word of god is so blatantly ignored by so many. Or to the point below it may be those who believe such things that take advantage of those I speak of below.

I suspect anyone who would commit things like this have other problems to begin with as such are probably not that hard to radicalise(before anyone gets stroppy no I'm not throwing all the blame behind mental health issues).

y'see this is where the religious aspect does come in, because for example within pure christianity (as witnessed by the bible bashing belt of americans) a lot of these are the same.

and yet moderate christians, like moderate jews bhuddists sihks hindus and muslims alike, are able to brush over the less savoury aspects of their respective religious texts, how come a relatively higher percentage of muslims are unable to do the same?

i suspect it's not really down to religion, religion is just the sheild the perpetrators hide behind, if it's possible to follow islam without being a terrorist (like the majority of muslims do) it follows that it's not the only cause behind it.

i am of the opinion there are problems with our society- just look at our youth suicide rates and it's not hard to see that there's something the western world is doing that screws people up badly.

 

[Mynight]

Tackle extremist divisive rhetoric in all forms and minimise the risk of these losers spiraling off within their (Daesh-"inspired"/Neo-Nazi/whatever other rightwing extremist) echo-chambers down a rabbit hole of the logically fallacious arguments that justify the hatred and dismissal of others that allows the scumbags to rationalise these acts of hate.

The problem is that a lot of people are so dumb and intellectually restricted, the scope of solutions they can envisage comprises the pages of the Daily Mail, and the films of Gerald Butler and Jason Statham.

Both sources not worried about the truth so much as profiting from manipulating emotion. As such they're actually part of the problem.

On the other hand you are also creating division by calling them "losers","dumb" and "intellectually restricted".

I think we should have learnt enough from the brexit vote that isn't the way to communicate effectively with people .

 

[Roar87]

Or maybe we think stereotyping millions of decent peaceful Muslims is wrong and does nothing to solve the issue, as a matter of fact many of us believe it's counter-productive and makes the situation much worse!!

You can't fight hatred, violence and bigotry with more violence, hatred and bigotry and even if you could why would you! You have already admitted defeat by allowing the murderous thugs to dictate your morality to you, you too have then become a monster.

You're more concerned about the stereotyping than the people killed and wounded in the attacks is my point.

 

[kitch9]

That argument falls flat on its face when you consider the fact that most Muslims in the east are killed by other Muslims.

Not really, Islam has multiple factions all with different interpretation of the words of the Quran. The prophet did not appoint a leader upon his death which lead to this horrible mess.

If you are Muslim and your interpretation of the Quran is different to theirs you might as well not exist either.

People say this isn't a problem of Islam, it is unfortunately due to the lack of hierarchy or pope like figure. The prophet is directly responsible for the death of billions due to his lack of foresight by not appointing a true successor to deliver a definitive message.

The only way this will stop is if one faction of Islam takes control and succeeds in making their vision of the religion the definitive one, hence this perpetual cycle of death as they struggle over this.

Say what you like about the likes of Saddam Hussain, in hindsight they managed to keep a lid on a boiling pot with a minimal amount of force it appears. Blair and Bush conned the world into removing that lid as they were deluded enough to think democracy could be delivered.

 

[Dis86]

Not really, Islam has multiple factions all with different interpretation of the words of the Quran. The prophet did not appoint a leader upon his death which lead to this horrible mess.

If you are Muslim and your interpretation of the Quran is different to theirs you might as well not exist either.

People say this isn't a problem of Islam, it is unfortunately due to the lack of hierarchy or pope like figure. The prophet is directly responsible for the death of billions due to his lack of foresight by not appointing a true successor to deliver a definitive message.

The only way this will stop is if one faction of Islam takes control and succeeds in making their vision of the religion the definitive one, hence this perpetual cycle of death as they struggle over this.

Say what you like about the likes of Saddam Hussain, in hindsight they managed to keep a lid on a boiling pot with a minimal amount of force it appears. Blair and Bush conned the world into removing that lid as they were deluded enough to think democracy could be delivered.

Actually that kind of supports my point.

It shows that either their God didn't bother to tell the prophet that this crap storm would arise if he didn't appoint a successor and therefore is culpable in an Islamic civil war...since he's all knowing he knew this would happen and so therefore is a fundamentally violent God with Islam as a result being a fundamentally violent religion.

Or its hokum.

Either way get rid and the world is better of due to one less violent cult or one less made up violent cult.

 

[nick.lidgett]

Not really, Islam has multiple factions all with different interpretation of the words of the Quran. The prophet did not appoint a leader upon his death which lead to this horrible mess.

If you are Muslim and your interpretation of the Quran is different to theirs you might as well not exist either.

People say this isn't a problem of Islam, it is unfortunately due to the lack of hierarchy or pope like figure. The prophet is directly responsible for the death of billions due to his lack of foresight by not appointing a true successor to deliver a definitive message.

The only way this will stop is if one faction of Islam takes control and succeeds in making their vision of the religion the definitive one, hence this perpetual cycle of death as they struggle over this.

Say what you like about the likes of Saddam Hussain, in hindsight they managed to keep a lid on a boiling pot with a minimal amount of force it appears. Blair and Bush conned the world into removing that lid as they were deluded enough to think democracy could be delivered.

Interesting view point. On the surface it seems to make sense. I dont understand Islam enough to disagree with it but something tells me its not that simple.

 

[Mynight]

i suspect it's not really down to religion, religion is just the sheild the perpetrators hide behind, if it's possible to follow islam without being a terrorist (like the majority of muslims do) it follows that it's not the only cause behind it.

i am of the opinion there are problems with our society- just look at our youth suicide rates and it's not hard to see that there's something the western world is doing that screws people up badly.

I do agree. Don't get me wrong I suspect there are some who read the book and somehow get it into their heads that they're doing the right thing by committing terrorism but I imagine the majority just find it a useful scapegoat. There's probably an element of "fame" to it as well, people want to be remembered after they've gone in general. Committing terrorism in the name of something that so many hold dear to them would be a good way of being remembered even if for the wrong reasons.

As for the western world being screwed up we certainly are. Our entire childhoods are sheltered, given pretty pictures of perfect lives/relationships when we grow up we quickly come to realise they are nothing but fabrications for the majority. We still have dire mental health services along with mental health still being demonised I imagine many people are too afraid of seeking help.

 

[Chris Wilson]

Anyone know where this terrorist's family originated from? The media say he's British born, but where were his parents or grandparents from? Are either of his parents alive?

 

[nick.lidgett]

Anyone know where this terrorist's family originated from? The media say he's British born, but where were his parents or grandparents from? Are either of his parents alive?

Im not sure but why is it relevant?

 

[Chris Wilson]

It's interesting and often useful to know the origins and background of enemies of the state, don't you agree? It may help with motive?
If there's notable commonality in these people's origin it may be illuminating and helpful.

 

[nick.lidgett]

It's interesting and often useful to know the origins and background of enemies of the state, don't you agree? It may help with motive?
If there's notable commonality in these people's origin it may be illuminating and helpful.

To a point, in this case I don't think its particularity relevant as its been widely reported this guy was a convert and not raised in an Islamic household, at what point in his life he became disillusioned and thought it was acceptable to behave the way he did is not clear yet.

 

[adolf hamster]

I do agree. Don't get me wrong I suspect there are some who read the book and somehow get it into their heads that they're doing the right thing by committing terrorism but I imagine the majority just find it a useful scapegoat. There's probably an element of "fame" to it as well, people want to be remembered after they've gone in general. Committing terrorism in the name of something that so many hold dear to them would be a good way of being remembered even if for the wrong reasons.

As for the western world being screwed up we certainly are. Our entire childhoods are sheltered, given pretty pictures of perfect lives/relationships when we grow up we quickly come to realise they are nothing but fabrications for the majority. We still have dire mental health services along with mental health still being demonised I imagine many people are too afraid of seeking help.

I think its more than that, years ago the mental health services were still dire, if not easily worse than now.

My suspicion is its this "always on" culture of social media where everyones given a sense of constantly being in view, being judged, and given this impression that they need to conform. Add the insane level of modern advertising and its a recipe for stress. Or at least thats following the logic that stress and suicide are conditions that seem to be growing rapidly in a society that should in theory be as equal and rich as anywhere (in terms of nobody forced into starvation, free healthcare, free choices etc etc).

Thats based on this being the major difference between modern western cultures and other cultures with lower suicide rates (including western culture of the past, pre internet, era)