Extension Budget Planning - am I being unrealistic

[enigma27]

Ahh, the classic 1k per m2 quote... I've not seen a job come in under that for 10 years at least, except for a garage with room in the roof!
The only way to get a decent price is to have all your drawings done to a detailed level and have that priced by at least 3 builders, otherwise you don't know what assumptions they are making pricing it, or where the price can escalate rapidly with an unknown...
1k a m2 was used a long time ago for new builds on flat plots, extensions generally have a lot more complexity in the basics (working around existing services, knocking openings in existing buildings, foundations etc etc)
Construction costs have increased and regulations have tightened, but you won't know how the builder is pricing it or where costs could be saved if you don't have details.
Even with that you can have a huge discrepancy, I had a tender return for a small side extension about a month ago where three of the four contractors prices were within a few hundred pounds of each other, but last week we had a much bigger extension return which had a price difference of 200k between lowest and highest!! Absolutely mental but the highest one either didn't want the job or was taking for rebuilding the rest of the house too!

(However, the quote you have does seem high, it's just impossible to tell why)

That's the amount I have been given by 3 builders in the last month for the area I live in. (just the building not fully finished)

Friend just had a 4x4 extension built and it cost them 19k but they had theirs finished internally.

 

[the_r_sole]

That's the amount I have been given by 3 builders in the last month for the area I live in. (just the building not fully finished)

Friend just had a 4x4 extension built and it cost them 19k but they had theirs finished internally.

What a builder gives you as a finger in the air figure and what they actually build it for are usually vastly different, hence the best practice way to price a job is with full drawings and specifications, much less margin for error and a much more solid base for a contract.

For the last 8 or so years I have been involved in designing small scale residential projects around the UK and the only things that have been around the 1k mark are self builds - have seen plenty of budget costs from contractors are that figure but by the time it's built the final account doesn't quite match up, however in that last couple of years the price of building has gone mental, currently there is a shortage of some types of blocks, bricks and rigid insulation which isn't helping at all. The updates in CDM regulations have added a fair bit to prelim costs for small scale works too (if your contractor knows what he's doing, and if he doesn't the liability falls back to you)

 

[Aberfala]

Based on what I paid for my extension 7 years ago I'd say your initial budget is about right.

Definitely sounds like the builder doesn't want the job based on that quote.

 

[Solus]

I paid 24k for 4.5 x 4.7 including removal of the old decking, led spotlights, 2 velux windows, decorated but no skirting (I am laying laminate soon). This was 8k below the highest quote I received and generally the average was around 28k. This was for a vaulted roof with internal vaulted ceiling. The extension also was block render (which blew and they had to come back to patch it up).

So I paid 1134 per sq metre and this included a few little extras others were unwilling to do (removal of decking).

I wasn't entirely pleased with the finish and had to get them back in to replaster the ceiling. The plumbing also had terrible banging noises and I had to get them back to run separate pipes on the surface. I believe the plasterboard to have been touching the pipes with dot and dab.

It was worth it in the end saving the money, but I should have just project managed it myself, they turned up for the main structure up to wall plate height for a week. I didn't hear from them at all for 2 weeks and they ignored my calls. Very stressful, turned out they were juggling other jobs throughout.

If you hire someone make sure they are there til completion and that they don't leave you in the lurch for weeks at a time.

They outsourced plastering, roofing, plumbing, electrics and decorating. If I had known this in the beginning and how long I would have had to wait for each contractor I would have paid them for up to wall plate height and got my own contractors in for the rest.

You don't state whether rendering is required, what style roof etc? You can get a significantly lower quote for a flat roof over a pitched roof.

Access is also something they will take in to account, can they easily bring materials through or does it mean a wheelbarrow and ramps to go through part of your building?

 

[Syla5]

Thanks for the responses. I honestly cant see it being a job that someone would want to turn down, its a straight forward build, and its not a builder, its a firm, and would have been for next year, so its not like the ball needs to get rolling asap and they have to fit us in!

Maybe as you say they didn't want the work, I am more of the opinion that its a greed driven quote.

No rendering is required. Pitched roof is much preferred and would make any planning easier. Flat roof just wouldn't look right in my opinion.

 

[booyaka]

, and would have been for next year,

There's a problem straight away - no one will give you a particularly accurate quote for a job that is over 6-9 months away from beginning. Materials/labour/other jobs costs etc are unknown in terms of 6 top 9 months from now. They know you are probably just fishing around so quoted a silly price as it's not a job they are going to consider until you are ready to start it.

I bet if you said you were ready to go tomorrow - the price would be much more "realistic"

 

[Maccapacca]

I want a laptop, I'm not telling you my budget and I want it in nine months, can you tell me how much to allow, all I know is it has to be 17"

 

[Syla5]

There's a problem straight away - no one will give you a particularly accurate quote for a job that is over 6-9 months away from beginning. Materials/labour/other jobs costs etc are unknown in terms of 6 top 9 months from now. They know you are probably just fishing around so quoted a silly price as it's not a job they are going to consider until you are ready to start it.

I bet if you said you were ready to go tomorrow - the price would be much more "realistic"

I don't agree with this so much. There is a time process where plans need to be drawn up, then planning needs to be obtained, budgets need to be finalised and then build begins.

This was all discussed with the company, who offer a full end to end process and gave time scales, (it wasn't just a one man builder show). So time wise we are talking 1-2 months for the architects plans, then another 2-3 months for planning permission applications, then a further month for budget refinements. That's up to 6 months alone before any ground is broken (taking us in to next year already). Then just due to the nature of the timing of things we are due to re-mortgage in the first couple of months of the new year, this would be were we obtain the funds. After which we could set a start date. Normal lead time there would be at least 1 month.

So considering out of all of that we would only be delaying the process for 1-2 months and everything else timing wise would sit with them, makes it seem less and less likely that timing is the cause for the quote given.

 

[the_r_sole]

I don't agree with this so much. There is a time process where plans need to be drawn up, then planning needs to be obtained, budgets need to be finalised and then build begins.

This was all discussed with the company, who offer a full end to end process and gave time scales, (it wasn't just a one man builder show). So time wise we are talking 1-2 months for the architects plans, then another 2-3 months for planning permission applications, then a further month for budget refinements. That's up to 6 months alone before any ground is broken (taking us in to next year already). Then just due to the nature of the timing of things we are due to re-mortgage in the first couple of months of the new year, this would be were we obtain the funds. After which we could set a start date. Normal lead time there would be at least 1 month.

So considering out of all of that we would only be delaying the process for 1-2 months and everything else timing wise would sit with them, makes it seem less and less likely that timing is the cause for the quote given.

But asking someone to budget a project that isn't designed, doesn't have any permissions, no specification, no foundation design etc for a year in the future means that they have to build in all of these unknowns and predict a figure - you're not getting the true build cost by asking one building firm to stick their finger in the air - I'm guessing that they will refine and revise their costs as the details become known...
Get a set of drawings done and get them priced by several contractors if you are looking for best value for money

 

[Syla5]

But asking someone to budget a project that isn't designed, doesn't have any permissions, no specification, no foundation design etc for a year in the future means that they have to build in all of these unknowns and predict a figure - you're not getting the true build cost by asking one building firm to stick their finger in the air - I'm guessing that they will refine and revise their costs as the details become known...
Get a set of drawings done and get them priced by several contractors if you are looking for best value for money

This is what this company are supposed to do! They provide the architect services as well, planning etc. Also I cant see how an initial budget estimate could be close to halved! Even reducing/refining the costs wont see £70k removed from the price. At a very basic level if full costs were £90k that is still £1,150 per square metre. This quote is over £2k per square metre. The finish is to a stage where it could be decorated, so no flooring, no internal fixtures above basics etc.

So going on from this, estimates need to be within a ball park before I go and blow £2.5k-£3k on plans, if I know that its never going to be an option after that what is the point?

I want a laptop, I'm not telling you my budget and I want it in nine months, can you tell me how much to allow, all I know is it has to be 17"

This quote wasn't based off just a phone call or limited details, we had someone come out and spend around an hour with us, we gave an indication of what we needed/wanted. Single story to pitched roof, requires plumbing and drainage (location of supplies and drains clearly pointed out), electrical supply (already have an armoured cable supply to the site so this will need limited adjustment), 3 windows, 3 doors. 15m2 x 4.5m2 main building, rectangle, no odd shapes. Additional Porch element (optional) same pitched roof of a 3.5m2 x 3m2 size. All construction is to match the main house so brick exterior. To a basic finished standard (interior stud walls in place, and plumbing to designated points, electrics all done, 1 light circuit, 1 socket circuit only required), ready for us to carry out main interior fixing out and decorating.

Are you genuinely telling me that its unreasonable to expect quotes to come in to a ball park range of what our budget was to within say £10k? ie in the £1k - £1.3k per m2.

 

[kefkef]

Mine was 30m2. I did a fair bit of the work myself (site clearance, fitted kitchen, tiling and wood floors, painting) but it included a decent sized kitchen with appliances, 3 metre bifold door, roof lanterns. Using my prices it worked out at £130k all in for your main extension and I would expect another £15k for the porch as it wouldn't need the finish of the main building. That price did include plans, engineers fees and building regs/planning though.

 

[theone8181]

FWIW im having an extension of 3.2 x 3.8m built and that will just need painting so pretty much all in for around £15k that is in the grim up north tho.

 

[the_r_sole]

This is what this company are supposed to do!

To be frank, you are asking the impossible - there a huge risks for the company pricing with so little information, therefore they are mitigating risk by allowing a higher budget, you might not like that, but this is the reality - they aren't going to give you an absolute bottom end price with zero information.

They provide the architect services as well, planning etc.

Which they will be getting a mark up on - using a single company who provide the design means you are paying for a management service too and markups on all subcontracted works - it's by far the most expensive way to do things, especially as you can only use a single contractor, therefore removing the need for them to be truly competitive.

Also I cant see how an initial budget estimate could be close to halved! Even reducing/refining the costs wont see £70k removed from the price.

How much have they got for provisional sums for drainage/foundations/work the existing house? prelims? etc
How much is allocated for design changes before planning, at the request of the planners and then on site?

At a very basic level if full costs were £90k that is still £1,150 per square metre. This quote is over £2k per square metre. The finish is to a stage where it could be decorated, so no flooring, no internal fixtures above basics etc.

But what you have is a total project cost, including all the consultants, local authority approvals, project management etc - not a pure construction cost
£1150 per m2 is a good rate at the moment, 2k is not out of the realms of reality either...

So going on from this, estimates need to be within a ball park before I go and blow £2.5k-£3k on plans, if I know that its never going to be an option after that what is the point?

The skill in a good designer is getting the best, most cost effective solution against the client brief, you might find that a good designer would significantly reduce the area of this extension to save cost but still achieve the brief, they may look at different construction methods etc etc

Or it could be that your budget doesn't meet your aspirations (I have this discussion with almost all clients)

If you have a figure in mind, you have to work with someone to deliver that - just saying you want this much space to a single builder to deliver removes all the opportunity to make a tight budget work imo

This quote wasn't based off just a phone call or limited details, we had someone come out and spend around an hour with us, we gave an indication of what we needed/wanted. Single story to pitched roof, requires plumbing and drainage (location of supplies and drains clearly pointed out), electrical supply (already have an armoured cable supply to the site so this will need limited adjustment), 3 windows, 3 doors. 15m2 x 4.5m2 main building, rectangle, no odd shapes. Additional Porch element (optional) same pitched roof of a 3.5m2 x 3m2 size. All construction is to match the main house so brick exterior. To a basic finished standard (interior stud walls in place, and plumbing to designated points, electrics all done, 1 light circuit, 1 socket circuit only required), ready for us to carry out main interior fixing out and decorating.

Are you genuinely telling me that its unreasonable to expect quotes to come in to a ball park range of what our budget was to within say £10k? ie in the £1k - £1.3k per m2.

With the level of information you have provided they have to make huge assumptions in areas where money can disappear, but you are not approaching the construction in the most cost effective manner, so you aren't going to get the most cost effective quotes.
Go to 10 different builders and you might get something approaching the market cost for the project, but until you tie it down it more, quotes are likely to vary hugely

 

[Syla5]

Mine was 30m2. I did a fair bit of the work myself (site clearance, fitted kitchen, tiling and wood floors, painting) but it included a decent sized kitchen with appliances, 3 metre bifold door, roof lanterns. Using my prices it worked out at £130k all in for your main extension and I would expect another £15k for the porch as it wouldn't need the finish of the main building. That price did include plans, engineers fees and building regs/planning though.

No kitchen, finish, bifold doors, roof lanterns, nothing. All of which is expensive add-ons as well, and all costs which have no factor in our job. So even your high spec job comes out cheaper then mine!

To be frank, you are asking the impossible - there a huge risks for the company pricing with so little information, therefore they are mitigating risk by allowing a higher budget, you might not like that, but this is the reality - they aren't going to give you an absolute bottom end price with zero information.

I think your trying to make this out to be a dark art of building cost estimates. They know to within a couple of square meters how much needs to be built. Height, width, length, depth of foundations etc (up to 1.2m has been quoted). I am not asking for absolute bottom end pricing, I am asking if I was being unrealistic with my budget expectations, and based on most of the responses the answer is no I wasn't being unrealistic, and yes they are quoting extremely high.

Which they will be getting a mark up on

They have an in-house architect, so there is no mark-up.

How much have they got for provisional sums for drainage/foundations/work the existing house? prelims? etc
How much is allocated for design changes before planning, at the request of the planners and then on site?

They haven't quoted in figures of the breakdown, rather they have quoted everything in quantity, this appears to be driven off internal price information that they don't want to disclose at this early stage, which I full respect.

This is entirely separate to the main house, no attachment without the porch, which fully costed is advised at £16k (£1.5k pm2). without the porch there is no adjustment needed to the main house.

But what you have is a total project cost, including all the consultants, local authority approvals, project management etc - not a pure construction cost
£1150 per m2 is a good rate at the moment, 2k is not out of the realms of reality either...

Pretty sure I mentioned this already but if I didn't, the estimate is purely for the site clearance and construction of the building with project management. No local authority approvals or consultations included.

Or it could be that your budget doesn't meet your aspirations (I have this discussion with almost all clients)

This is exactly what I am trying to access.

With the level of information you have provided they have to make huge assumptions in areas where money can disappear, but you are not approaching the construction in the most cost effective manner, so you aren't going to get the most cost effective quotes.

Again I don't follow? What huge assumptions have to be made? What areas can swallow an extra £70k?

Based on the information you have seen on what we are looking at, how much would you ballpark the job for a standard construction with, standard foundation requirements, easy to place drainage and easy to run electrics, with no complications?

 

[Maccapacca]

Are you genuinely telling me that its unreasonable to expect quotes to come in to a ball park range of what our budget was to within say £10k? ie in the £1k - £1.3k per m2.

What I'm trying to say is you want us to give you ball park figures without any other detail than the size?? I've just priced one at £3.5k a sqm so my Chartered Quantity Surveyor range for you is £1k to £4k a sqm and I won't charge you for my time.

TBH you sound like the type that would get a high quote due to amount of grief the poor builder will have to deal with

 

[the_r_sole]

I think your trying to make this out to be a dark art of building cost estimates. They know to within a couple of square meters how much needs to be built. Height, width, length, depth of foundations etc (up to 1.2m has been quoted).

Doing this as a day job and regularly scrutinising quotes for construction projects, there is a lot that can go wrong and add costs, if you don't have a design to price, you have to try to allow for things that can go wrong.

I am not asking for absolute bottom end pricing,

1k per m2 is absolute bottom end pricing with no risk

I am asking if I was being unrealistic with my budget expectations, and based on most of the responses the answer is no I wasn't being unrealistic, and yes they are quoting extremely high.

The single estimate you have is high, but, as I've said - you are approaching it in the least cost effective manner, allowing them to take on the design and them knowing that only they are pricing it - the same deal with a different contractor will result in an inflated cost too

They have an in-house architect, so there is no mark-up.

You will be paying more for this service than if you appointed your own consultant directly.

They haven't quoted in figures of the breakdown, rather they have quoted everything in quantity, this appears to be driven off internal price information that they don't want to disclose at this early stage, which I full respect.

Well, you can't understand how they have priced the job and where they have allocated the budget to mitigate risk, so it's impossible for you (or us) to understand why its expensive

This is entirely separate to the main house, no attachment without the porch, which fully costed is advised at £16k (£1.5k pm2). without the porch there is no adjustment needed to the main house.

My point was that there are plenty of areas where costs will be estimated as provisional sums, which will mean the estimate you have is inflated.

Pretty sure I mentioned this already but if I didn't, the estimate is purely for the site clearance and construction of the building with project management. No local authority approvals or consultations included.

So they are providing the architect, but not an engineer or submission of planning drawings etc? If they are offering a design service it usually includes for consultants like the architect...

Again I don't follow? What huge assumptions have to be made? What areas can swallow an extra £70k?

Ground conditions, requests from planning authorities, external finishing materials utility connections, spec of windows, etc etc - all of these are unknowns so it means prices will be inflated to account for changes to the assumptions

Based on the information you have seen on what we are looking at, how much would you ballpark the job for a standard construction with, standard foundation requirements, easy to place drainage and easy to run electrics, with no complications?

Having not seen the site restrictions, not knowing your local area or knowing what planning etc is like, it's hard to say at the moment I would say that £1500 per m2 is about average but that is ex VAT, and for construction only, not for consultants fees.

 

[LiE]

Get some more quotes!

 

[Syla5]

Ground conditions, requests from planning authorities, external finishing materials utility connections, spec of windows, etc etc - all of these are unknowns so it means prices will be inflated to account for changes to the assumptions

Having not seen the site restrictions, not knowing your local area or knowing what planning etc is like, it's hard to say at the moment I would say that £1500 per m2 is about average but that is ex VAT, and for construction only, not for consultants fees.

Planning is very lenient in the area, knowing other work that has been done in the street, no changes or requirements have had to be taken in to account. Windows and doors based off what we have on the main house is going to cost no more then £3k total. no site access issues and full space on site for everything.

Also why excluding vat? It cannot be avoided (at least for us) at all so there is no point even discussing non VAT prices. Its not like I am going to create a budget and then add a VAT amount on top of said budget just for the VAT, that wouldn't be a budget! I was planning a budget based on what I would have to pay to settle up everything (not plans or planning) at the end of the day, which will include the VAT.

It seems that you work around costs of £1.8k per m2 (did that include project management?) says to me that your work experience seems to be closer to the top end of the market, or I am being woefully unrealistic with my expectations, again based on other responses it seems I was not being unrealistic.

Get some more quotes!

Going to! Just need to understand if we can get in to a ballpark range, or if even the bottom end of reality is out of touch. No point getting other quotes, or plans drawn up, if we cant get even close to budget (5-10% area).

 

[booyaka]

If your serious - Get some drawings done by your own/external architect. Don't use an internal one company approach - I used a local self employed chap - came recommended - Cost me £850 for extension plans. That way the builders quotes are likely to be much more accurate. And they will know your serious about it.

You can't expect a builder to quote for a huge extension project at any kind of accurate level without some plans.

I agree with others - you have no firm plans for anything, all verbal discussions. No one will give you an accurate and sensible price until you have some decent plans in place.

What did you base your budget on?? how did you come up with your figure? Your is just as speculative as the builders one. Who's right? Who's wrong?

 

[the_r_sole]

Planning is very lenient in the area, knowing other work that has been done in the street, no changes or requirements have had to be taken in to account. Windows and doors based off what we have on the main house is going to cost no more then £3k total. no site access issues and full space on site for everything.

Also why excluding vat? It cannot be avoided (at least for us) at all so there is no point even discussing non VAT prices. Its not like I am going to create a budget and then add a VAT amount on top of said budget just for the VAT, that wouldn't be a budget! I was planning a budget based on what I would have to pay to settle up everything (not plans or planning) at the end of the day, which will include the VAT.

It seems that you work around costs of £1.8k per m2 (did that include project management?) says to me that your work experience seems to be closer to the top end of the market, or I am being woefully unrealistic with my expectations, again based on other responses it seems I was not being unrealistic.



Going to! Just need to understand if we can get in to a ballpark range, or if even the bottom end of reality is out of touch. No point getting other quotes, or plans drawn up, if we cant get even close to budget (5-10% area).

Prices on construction are always quoted ex VAT - it's just the way it is, you can sometimes be charged different levels of VAT, if you're subcontracting trades, some of those may not be vat registered etc - your final quote will show the VAT costs as a separate rate - if you are doing the budget you have to allow for VAT and pay attention to what others are quoting if it includes or excludes VAT - just because it doesn't suit you that prices are quoted ex vat, doesn't mean anyone is going to change the way they present a price - with all tenders we have VAT and contingency as additional items.

I don't work to a consistent cost or on a typical type of project - I guessed an average for you, I'm not saying it will be that price... I have worked on some self build projects where the budget has been extremely tight and on some high end projects (one which topped 5k per m2)

Again, just to be clear - you are not doing this in the most cost effective way, so don't expect the most cost effective prices to be returned, I can't really say it again, or add any more. Any budget is achievable but you need to understand how to achieve that and what compromises may be required - approaching a single company to provide a turn key solution is always going to be the most expensive way to procure a building.