Party support, why should it be for life?

LOAM · 12 Jun 2017 at 14:15

I've only voted for the same party twice since 1991 when I was eligible to vote. I have friends who wont tell their kids who they voted for, instead encourage them to read manifestos and discuss their contents with them, I think this is a very responsible attitude but I still think some bias will be passed on.

Blackjack Davy · 16 Jun 2017 at 01:38

I've always voted for the same party because they've always had the ideals I agree with. I would vote for another party if I happened to agree with their policies but so far it hasn't happened. My sister votes the polar opposite so its not as if we're all one party voters.

easyrider · 16 Jun 2017 at 01:57

Rroff said:
The socialist direction Labour takes tends to reach a paradoxical position in the long term as has been proven time and time again where the redistribution of wealth has a negative effect on society due to its regressive direction of flow, disenchantment between people who see equality implemented in an apparent abstract manner which tends to result in a structural cascade failure as people lack incentive, individuality becomes suppressed - eventually to succeed socialism requires totalitarianism and no society can survive totalitarianism.

Hmmmm

disenchantment between people who see equality implemented in an apparent abstract manner

Meaning what exactly?

Rroff · 16 Jun 2017 at 02:09

easyrider said:
Meaning what exactly?

Ultimately socialism, especially with Marxist leanings is an attempt to brute force past the failings of human nature. For instance how you you reconcile between two people being "rewarded" the same based on needs if they have different perceptions of the other's ability and contribution?

Liquiduk · 16 Jun 2017 at 02:34

Really interesting hearing different peoples stance on this.

I was born in the mid 90s so this idea of allegiance to a political party seems fairly foreign to me - I've no doubt seen it around me with other folk. I base my vote on what I see in the manifesto and which parties direction best fits what I want my future to look like.

For me though, I think the political system is dumb and given how fast the world is changing we need to seriously consider something else to govern the country/world.

Rroff · 16 Jun 2017 at 02:39

Been my impression for awhile that both the UK political system and the EU is too trapped in a world that was left behind 30 years ago and needs a top to bottom reformation to be better suited for modern times.

Liquiduk · 16 Jun 2017 at 02:42

Rroff said:
Been my impression for awhile that both the UK political system and the EU is too trapped in a world that was left behind 30 years ago and needs a top to bottom reformation to be better suited for modern times.

It's only going to look more dated as time passes as well which is hilariously sad.

Dirk Diggler · 16 Jun 2017 at 05:49

Rroff said:
Ultimately socialism, especially with Marxist leanings is an attempt to brute force past the failings of human nature. For instance how you you reconcile between two people being "rewarded" the same based on needs if they have different perceptions of the other's ability and contribution?

I was talking about basic things like making sure our elderly are able to heat their homes and in the process not die from hypothermia... Basic things like feeding our children at school. These things should not be seen as a threat to my three holidays a year because I might need to pay a little more income tax.... Or in the case of many that I work beside, asking them to pay at least some income tax.

If you're making a counter argument then I'm really not sure what it is?

Rroff · 16 Jun 2017 at 05:57

String said:
I was talking about basic things like making sure our elderly are able to heat their homes and in the process not die from hypothermia... Basic things like feeding our children at school. These things should not be seen as a threat to my three holidays a year because I might need to pay a little more income tax.... Or in the case of many that I work beside, asking them to pay at least some income tax.

If you're making a counter argument then I'm really not sure what it is?

My point was if you turn to Labour for answers to that you are going to get much more than you bargained for as well. Which in the long run probably won't be any less damaging than the Tories even if a different way.

Dirk Diggler · 16 Jun 2017 at 09:19

Rroff said:
My point was if you turn to Labour for answers to that you are going to get much more than you bargained for as well. Which in the long run probably won't be any less damaging than the Tories even if a different way.

Quantify it. What is this "much more than I'm bargaining for"? In my opinion it's a sense of fear that helping others will somehow have a detrimental effect on ourselves.

Here's an example, and feel free to counter here because I'm not speaking from the stance that I'm right about everything, I can only call it as I see it:

There's been a lot of debate about higher rate income tax and whether it would be damaging to raise the rate from 40% to maybe 42% or whatever. The argument gets put forward that it will actually reduce the tax take, because people will just leave the country and seek employment elsewhere. In my opinion, this is utterly laughable. I pay higher rate tax, and I can assure you that if it had to increase by 2% then I wouldn't looking to sell my house and uproot my family to another country. I'd simply get on with it, and if I felt strongly that it was unjust then I'd vote accordingly in the next election.

The right wing politicians and media have us all convinced that we need to forget about compassion and empathy because it's a question of self preservation. Your statement regarding Labour giving us much more than we bargained for appears to me to be just another baseless, intangible scare statement.

Rroff · 16 Jun 2017 at 14:41

You need to think bigger - do you think May with all her stuff about the snooper's charter, etc. wouldn't actually try and move things in that direction? with the positions many of the movers and shakers in the Labour party have articulated you really think they won't move things in those directions? potentially with people feeling the effects of it well before a next election.

Dirk Diggler · 16 Jun 2017 at 16:25

Rroff said:
You need to think bigger - do you think May with all her stuff about the snooper's charter, etc. wouldn't actually try and move things in that direction? with the positions many of the movers and shakers in the Labour party have articulated you really think they won't move things in those directions? potentially with people feeling the effects of it well before a next election.

I couldn't care less about The Investigatory Powers Act.

Rroff · 16 Jun 2017 at 16:34

String said:
I couldn't care less about The Investigatory Powers Act.

What about it? I'm using it as an illustration of a point nothing about it itself matters in this context.

ebilcake · 16 Jun 2017 at 16:48

It shouldn't be for life, however there is a clear distinction what parties stand for so unless you as a person drastically change it's unlikely votes will change unless it's strategic, or unless you come into in a lot of money.

Dirk Diggler · 16 Jun 2017 at 16:58

Rroff said:
What about it? I'm using it as an illustration of a point nothing about it itself matters in this context.

It was you that brought it up!

I'm done with this conversation, not in a petulant way, I just can't make sense of where you're going and it's taking the thread on a tangent.

I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Rroff · 16 Jun 2017 at 17:03

String said:
It was you that brought it up!

I'm done with this conversation, not in a petulant way, I just can't make sense of where you're going and it's taking the thread on a tangent.

I'm happy to agree to disagree.

But why did I bring it up? I used it in an illustrative sense - nothing about the act itself matters in this context we could replace it with any generic act that has undesirable long term repercussions that any given politician might have a fondness for.

You might not care less about the act but that isn't important to the point I'm making.

BDEE · 16 Jun 2017 at 17:59

I am all for totally abolishing the party system in it's entirety.

As far as I can see it, the party system results in votes being blocked, not because of disagreement, but to get one over on the other party. Disagreements making progress through legislation drawn out so much it takes years to get things done. Things just don't happen at all in a bid to appease certain party members to back something else. etc etc.

Most of the time it's just a ding-dong battle of words between each side of the house, which holds us back socially and economically. You also end up with morons who vote like sheep just because their Dad / Granddad voted a certain way (the north east labour stronghold being the worst for it), and nothing to do with the actual candidate or the manifesto of the party they belong to.

I would prefer to see an elected house of representatives, where candidates stand in each constituency as an independent. Once elected, the house appoints its ministers through internal voting, with those experienced in the relevant areas being shortlisted first.

It wont ever happen though, because everyone is too busy fighting for "power".

adolf hamster · 16 Jun 2017 at 18:19

LOAM said:
I've only voted for the same party twice since 1991 when I was eligible to vote. I have friends who wont tell their kids who they voted for, instead encourage them to read manifestos and discuss their contents with them, I think this is a very responsible attitude but I still think some bias will be passed on.

it's reasonable, neither of my parents have ever told me who they voted for, although I could probably hazard a reasonably accurate guess.

although you're right about bias, I do notice my mother in particular becoming more and more feminist in her views and I do wonder how that affects my own judgement.

helpimcrap · 16 Jun 2017 at 19:48

My relatives annoy me for this very reason - they support parties because of how they were when they were a kid or hate the others because of how they were brought up. Not the fact they've been better or screwed up since.