Looting! Well thats what it is. :(

Orionaut

Orionaut

Orionaut

Soldato
Joined
2 Aug 2012
Posts
7,809
Well, in any extreme situation, be it War, Natural disaster, Man made disaster, whatever. you find that it often brings out the best in people. It sometimes brings out the worst. But my hope for the future of Mankind is that the latter tend to be outnumbered by the former.

Aaaand then you get people like this!:eek:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...faked-family-death-get-10000-two-weeks-court/

Words fail me, even the ones that would not be appropriate for a family forum....!

I regard this as Looting, as surely as if he had been caught cutting jewellery off the dead.

The gallows would be too good for him really. :mad:
 
You know if the government would have had some sense and had a working system for who lives where/who's emigrating/immigrating... this wouldnt be an issue.

But the omnishambles knows no end.
 
They caught him, job done. When you deal with "lower class" people you encounter a few chancers.
 
StriderX said:
You know if the government would have had some sense and had a working system for who lives where/who's emigrating/immigrating... this wouldnt be an issue.

But the omnishambles knows no end.
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I think if the government had been being super strict about proving your residency in the towers and researching people's identities before providing shelter and support, you would have been the very first to condemn them for being unfeeling and discriminating against immigrants and undocumented residents.

It was a humanitarian disaster. The authorities erred on the side of helping people first and verifying fully later. How many unhomed and hungry and bereaved people would have been turned away by the level of strict verification necessary to catch a liar like this?

You damn them for letting this person get away with £10,000 worth of support (except he didn't - he's been identified and caught). You'd damn them even more for a situation where a resident was turned away because they couldn't provide a passport and two recent utility bills.

You have no sympathy whatsoever. You just like attacking the authorities who are trying to manage the disaster. Good for the police who managed to tell he was a conman.
 
Utter scum. Bit of prison time then back to Vietnam with him. But he'll likely get a suspended sentence and counselling.

Edited cause I'm a tool!
 
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h4rm0ny said:
I think if the government had been being super strict about proving your residency in the towers and researching people's identities before providing shelter and support, you would have been the very first to condemn them for being unfeeling and discriminating against immigrants and undocumented residents.

It was a humanitarian disaster. The authorities erred on the side of helping people first and verifying fully later. How many unhomed and hungry and bereaved people would have been turned away by the level of strict verification necessary to catch a liar like this?

You damn them for letting this person get away with £10,000 worth of support (except he didn't - he's been identified and caught). You'd damn them even more for a situation where a resident was turned away because they couldn't provide a passport and two recent utility bills.

You have no sympathy whatsoever. You just like attacking the authorities who are trying to manage the disaster. Good for the police who managed to tell he was a conman.
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Yet, that isn't what i'm saying.

The council should know rather clearly who lives there and who does not, but they chose instead that they were too important a group of people to do anything substantial and left it to the community, who have no idea about anything other than to help anyone that asks for it.

This is just a case of socialism and OP has decided that because of various factors due to one instance of failure, he'd make a new thread rather than post it in the Grenfell one. Oh look at that, bit of immigrant/foreigner bashing already, quelle surprise.
 
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StriderX said:
The council should know rather clearly who lives there and who does not, but they chose instead that they were too important a group of people to do anything substantial and left it to the community, who have no idea about anything other than to help anyone that asks for it..
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The people in the tower lost everything. Their identification documents were destroyed. That has been one of the big issues in their predicament.
 
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Safetytrousers said:
The people in the tower lost everything. They do not have any identification documents. That is one of the big issues in their predicament.
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Their name is more than enough, but whatever, it's been over a month now since and it's largely unimportant as we as a country don't care about due diligence, much too difficult.
 
Safetytrousers said:
No, it isn't. Or perhaps you would like to tell that to the survivors if you think that's true.
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Why would i tell them what?

Their names should be on Management companies records and at least the council billing system... how is it so difficult to just ask for a name (and perhaps address) to confirm?

They're probably doing it now, as there's no other way to identify them without it being a particularly long cross-matching of information for little gain.
 
StriderX said:
Why would i tell them what?

Their names should be on Management companies records and atleast the council billing system... how is it so difficult to just ask for a name (and perhaps address) to confirm?
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A lot of the survivors have been advised not to take the money so far offered because it may preclude them from getting a bigger payout and further help later on. They have had a very tough time because they have not had their documents. It is a fact they have had a tougher time because they do not have their documents - I saw a group discussion on the TV with some of them and this is what they were saying.
If they could just have said their name and former address and everything would be rosy, they certainly would have done.
 
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Safetytrousers said:
A lot of the survivors have been advised not to take the money so far offered because it may preclude them from getting a bigger payout after an enquiry. They have had a very tough time because they have not had their documents. It is a fact they have had a tougher time because they do not have their documents.
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The government's inability to do much because of someone losing all the documents isnt the fault of the residents, it's the terrible system and bureaucratic stupidity that requires that you prove your identity via such things, even though a subletter could easily show the original tenants documents and get around it anyway...

I imagine they are attempting to cross-check passport/driving ID against bills and talking to residents, if they're serious about it obviously, i'm sure some of them have no ID whatsoever though, which is why i return to my name/address and trusting that they wouldn't be so savage.
 
StriderX said:
Yet, that isn't what i'm saying.

The council should know rather clearly who lives there and who does not, but they chose instead that they were too important a group of people to do anything substantial and left it to the community, who have no idea about anything other than to help anyone that asks for it.

This is just a case of socialism and OP has decided that because of various factors due to one instance of failure, he'd make a new thread rather than post it in the Grenfell one. Oh look at that, bit of immigrant/foreigner bashing already, quelle surprise.
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I think you have a rather naive conception of what is involved in this. I don't know London or this area well but I've enough experience of inner cities elsewhere. Twenty-four stories, 120 flats - there's no way that the council has a firm idea of who is in residence. Flats like this are riddled with illegal subletting, undocumented sharers, sofa-drifters with no fixed address. There were eight story flats where I used to live and I could reel off a dozen names right now of people who lived in just one of them that weren't officially tenants. You think that's a failure by the council? Then how do you propose managing it? When someone says to another: "I'm going away - you pay me to stay here and just send me on anything official," how does a council official suddenly pop out of the bushes and know about it? When one tenant says to three friends, family or colleagues: "I can get another two beds in here..." at what point does that conversation suddenly involve informing the council? And we haven't even got onto illegal immigrants.

As I say, I don't know Grenfell or the area, but I do know other areas very well and the level of Big Brother scrutiny required to have an accurate and precise idea of who lives there is not one I believe you would knowingly advocate for. But unknowingly, that seems to be what you're complaining we don't have.

So I don't agree with you condemning the authorities for erring on the side of caution. And I maintain that if they didn't you would be the first to attack them for it. Plus, to remind you, they actually caught this guy. Tracking all this stuff reliably in a disaster where people have lost their homes and had to evacuate in a hurry - you seem to have no idea how difficult that is to do without excluding genuine victims.
 
StriderX said:
Their names should be on Management companies records and at least the council billing system... how is it so difficult to just ask for a name (and perhaps address) to confirm?
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Because you have to have an accurate and complete list against which to check it. And as explained to you a few times now by myself and others - simply saying "there should be" doesn't make it practical. You seem to be demanding that unless someone's name appears on an official list of residents, they should be turned away onto the street.

Harsh.

StriderX said:
The government's inability to do much because of someone losing all the documents isnt the fault of the residents, it's the terrible system and bureaucratic stupidity that requires that you prove your identity via such things, even though a subletter could easily show the original tenants documents and get around it anyway...
Click to expand...

Tell you what, let's put a chip in everybody's hand. Or on their forehead.

Either will do.
 
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