Should we abolish student fees?

You could definitely get onto courses with a few Cs. As opposed to my law school which required AAA (when A* didn't exist :p). In those circumstances clearly the course with people who got Cs are A level aren't pitched at the same level as for those who got As. But anyway, then you have the same for sociology courses... so you have the waste of time end of the scale, then at the other end you have the LSE. Would you rather employ a Birmingham City law grad with a 2:i or an LSE sociology grad with a 2:i. I'd suggest it'd clearly be more sensible to employ the latter.

Obviously failing would be rubbish. I'd question where the first is from, of course... it's not as though all firsts are equal. A 2:i isn't the same everywhere, etc.

The point was just that a 'Mickey Mouse degree' isn't necessarily as bad as people like to say, whilst a respectable sounding one isn't necessarily as good as people like to say.

On first glance probably the LSE grad, although I would add more weighting to the Interview + Application. Going to a good university and getting a decent grade doesn't always equal good characteristics in other areas. I went to a top 6 (in the UK) uni according to the league tables that is. Shame they are highly dependent on entry grades which doesn't really say much about exit grades (only prestige attracts higher achieving students).
 
Forget graduates, this country hasn't turned out anywhere near enough technician apprentices in decades. You, know the people who maintain and fault find the stuff that all these degree qualified engineers design.

indeed, we need to get rid of this stigma that's grown around "vocational" courses, there's a lot of excellent information you can get doing an HND that a degree isn't going to teach you.
 
The point is just that the subject on its own doesn't mean it is or isn't Mickey Mouse*. There are other factors which help define that.

*outside of stuff like medicine.

True, my point was more me playing devil's advocate (sorry). A purely grade based system would not work because of the likely backlash and inability to equalise the quality of teaching and due to probable selective pressures. However, a subject-based system would not work due to other factors and varied need.

As far as I see it there are 3 main options, 1. completely shake up the university + vocational (and loan)systems, 2. go by supply and demand (the left +some centrists wouldn't like it), make it equal in terms of reduction or scrapping of loans (the right and some centrists wouldn't like it).

There is also a relatively large population of the £9k per year students who would be annoyed if the cost was reduced (although that is probably an entire discussion in itself).
 
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The bell has been rung; hard to unring it. However, interest on the loans should be 0% or in par with BoE. Whacking young adults with 6.1% interest paying for their own education. Come on.
 
I'm not surprised with the high number of people that will never pay back their loans. I done a HNC in Computing which I had to pay for the final year and after all that is pretty much available is flexi-contract min wage first line support work which employers want a degree, years of exp and certs.

There's the option is going back and doing a degree with more debt, just to apply for the same jobs as before.

Some HE courses either need their cost reduced or be removed as its generally degree or gtfo. :P
 
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I think education and training should be free, I think everyone should have a chance to choose higher education or take training that would lead them to getting a job at the end of it, this seems to make sense to me, since if everyone had the education or training for their jobs, it would pay back the system in the end.

That said, if you wanted more then one thing after this first free ride, I think you should pay.
 
No, absolutely not. I have come away from uni with about £38k debt, but I'm fine with that. We have it easy here. Most students won't ever pay that back...

The repayment percentage is so low. Earn 30k and you'll be paying back about £810 a year and it is wiped after 30. I've heard a lot of arguments about how people have to give up on going to uni because of the tuition fees, but come on... If you pass on going to university because of the tuition fee then you don't deserve to be there in the first place. You're an idiot. Simple as that.
 
There's a shortage of engineers in this country as a whole. I think there should be incentives for doing well, perhaps student that achieve 65% and above in a technical or useful degree could have their fees slashed by half or be given a non repayable grant.

Well, I've just been given 25k to train to be a teacher, so it does happen.
 
There's a shortage of engineers in this country as a whole. I think there should be incentives for doing well, perhaps student that achieve 65% and above in a technical or useful degree could have their fees slashed by half or be given a non repayable grant.

Have you got a source to this "shortage of engineer's" claim? I hear it a lot but as somebody who has just got a graduate engineer job, I can assure you it wasn't trivial and competition was high. One place I interviewed for had 600+ applicant's and only one role.
 
You could definitely get onto courses with a few Cs. As opposed to my law school which required AAA (when A* didn't exist :p). In those circumstances clearly the course with people who got Cs are A level aren't pitched at the same level as for those who got As. But anyway, then you have the same for sociology courses... so you have the waste of time end of the scale, then at the other end you have the LSE. Would you rather employ a Birmingham City law grad with a 2:i or an LSE sociology grad with a 2:i. I'd suggest it'd clearly be more sensible to employ the latter.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy into this "ex-poly = worthless degree" snobbery. I'm sure there is a difference between graduates going to the better universities and the worst one, but I think the better universities definitely overplay it and the difference isn't as big as they claim. And don't get me started on the "Russell group" marketing con.

I studied at B&FC and got a first class degree awarded by Lancaster University. It's certainly not held me back and I've had successful graduate offers from BAE and IBM - in fact, I've been successful in every application so far - BAE actually commented they prefer garduates from B&FC as they feel their degrees are tailored better to their requirements (B&FC have BAE employees on their governing board and BAE are involved in module creation)

Obviously failing would be rubbish. I'd question where the first is from, of course... it's not as though all firsts are equal. A 2:i isn't the same everywhere, etc.

I think QAA would argue with you there. There is actually quite a rigorous quality system in place for Universities and the degrees they award. I would suggest the difference between a first at a "top" university and a first at a "low" university would be marginal, academically at least.

Look at somewhere like Blackpool and the Fylde College for example - rated TEF gold, rated the highest performing large college by the SFA, higher graduate earning potential than a lot of "proper' unis, awarded the right to award their own foundation degrees ("full" degrees are awarded by Lancaster), competing with established universities at events like BCUR etc. Established universities are losing their edge - more flexible, better managed and more student focused institutions are giving them a run for their money, especially when employability versus academia is factored in.
 
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No, absolutely not. I have come away from uni with about £38k debt, but I'm fine with that. We have it easy here. Most students won't ever pay that back...

The repayment percentage is so low. Earn 30k and you'll be paying back about £810 a year and it is wiped after 30. I've heard a lot of arguments about how people have to give up on going to uni because of the tuition fees, but come on... If you pass on going to university because of the tuition fee then you don't deserve to be there in the first place. You're an idiot. Simple as that.
My wife finished her pharmacy degree in 2009, she was the last year of ~3 grand fees. She pays 188 a month so quite a bit more than 900 a year (not sure if the %ages changed when the fees went up) by my reckoning it should be paid off in 7 years (she's had 2 X 9 months off for mat leave). So she should pay it off easily before 30 years, the new scheme I can believe the vast majority won't pay back (not sure where the loan money comes from but how do they stay in business?). Fwiw I did an apprenticeship and one/hnc so I had no fees and in my profession of manufacturing quite often experience is more critical than qualifications.
 
Well, I've just been given 25k to train to be a teacher, so it does happen.
How did that ever get passed ? You have little to no need for that 25k. So tell me between that and the student loan you won't pay back how much tax payers money have you totaled up now.
 
My wife finished her pharmacy degree in 2009, she was the last year of ~3 grand fees. She pays 188 a month so quite a bit more than 900 a year (not sure if the %ages changed when the fees went up) by my reckoning it should be paid off in 7 years (she's had 2 X 9 months off for mat leave). So she should pay it off easily before 30 years, the new scheme I can believe the vast majority won't pay back (not sure where the loan money comes from but how do they stay in business?). Fwiw I did an apprenticeship and one/hnc so I had no fees and in my profession of manufacturing quite often experience is more critical than qualifications.

Yeah, to be fair I was referring to the newer plan 2. If she pays it off within the next 10 years then that's absolutely sound, but on the new plan I honestly think more than 50% will make it to 30 years without paying off the majority of their loan. Look at all the useless degrees they promote these days. Earning £21k a year from your useless degree will mean you pay back £0 a year.
 
There should be a graduate tax instead.

That's exactly what we have right now.

I know the thread is about the fees, and hopefully there is a suggestoin of how to pay for that.
In the article though, quotes like this are why people need a bit more education on student debts:


https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/882580965641637888
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-loans-tuition-fees-changes

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The entire debate is framed in the wrong way. Nobody is paying back £50k+. Nobody is paying back 6% interest. It's a complete nonsense.

Just rebrand it for what it is.

The only people actually paying £9k a year for university are those not taking the loans.
 
Not for the richest graduates. It's a graduate tax for most, but not for everyone.

The richest graduates are a tiny minority who, let's face it, probably come from a rich background to begin with, and are able to pay up front or pay off the debt early anyway. The debate should be framed according to how it affects most people and for most people it's a graduate tax and they will never pay off the full balance within 30 years.
 
There should be a graduate tax instead.


That would include nurses, potentially teachers, etc. Given the threshold now is £21k. Teachers start on £22k, but thet interest isn't pretty right now and on just over the threshold they're not paying much back (9% rings a bell, so they'd initially be paying back £90 a year, which would be less than the interest).

The idea that people not paying off their loans means it was a waste of time is obviously stupid.

Well no that just means that you spent a lot of money setting up the loan system and fee system and running it etc


Which is a massive waste of time when it could be done more efficiently by simply having it either free (direct payment to the uni) or as you say a tax.
 
Degrees are like ******** these days, everyone has one.

The fees should stay, and in addition must be paid back in full before retirement. Something needs to be done to weed out the wasters who take the money then spend the rest of their life on meager wages never repaying the money.
 
My view is either carry on insisting that 50% of the student population year on year with fees. Keep the fees priced as they are with some courses being free if we have a skilled shortage in these areas (and the subject to you going into a career specifically aimed at that degree, although might be hard to police. Whilst keeping the (imo absurd) number of different degree courses, although some are damn right embarrassing. But if people want to pay to study something then let them.

Or you scale back University attendance, and the number of courses, to specific STEM, Law, Medicine, etc. and only let the brightest 20% (insert whatever number is sustainable) and let them go to university for free. In tandem though make solid investments back into apprenticeships.

Although the apprenticeships thing is already happening, and I have no idea why it's not made more public, but the Government brought in recently that all companies with a pay bill over £3million have to pay 0.5% of their pay bill into an apprenticeship levy. Basically every month companies are taxed 0.5% of their pay bill. Every monthly payment a company makes they have this sat aside to train their own apprentices for up to two years. Any money that hasn't been used then goes to a centralised fund that any company can drill down from. It's a fair chunck of change.
 
How did that ever get passed ? You have little to no need for that 25k. So tell me between that and the student loan you won't pay back how much tax payers money have you totaled up now.

As there is a recruitment crisis in teaching atm it's an incentive to get high achieving graduates to train as Computing teachers.

As for how much student debt I have, if you really must know, I currently have 35k in student debt, my PGCE next year increases that by 15k. I'm doing a masters straight after, so another 10k. Then I'm possibly going to do a second degree (2nd degrees are now funded for STEM subjects) at the same time as my PHD, so possibly another 50k, so around 110k in total by the end of my academic journey.

Don't worry though, my PHD is fully funded, so you don't have to worry about that being added to my debt - you're paying for that out the goodness of your heart.
 
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