google employee's internal diversity memo goes viral

I'm not arguing for "positive" discrimination, actually the complete opposite as I've mentioned several times in the thread.

What I am arguing for however is the reduction in the idea that there are men and women's jobs and the cultures and misconceptions about said jobs. That's by far the biggest issue IMO.

Haven't read the memo. Is that what he said or was it more nuanced in certain genders have predilections towards certain topics?

I was raised in a pretty "feminist" family and whilst I certainly wouldn't call myself a feminist, I fully support the ideas of opportunity. However I don't think it is unreasonable there might be broad differences in how we might go about things?
 
However I don't think it is unreasonable there might be broad differences in how we might go about things?

The problem is in applying broad trends to a company like Google. As one of the authors of research cited in the memo said: it's like trying to perform surgery with an axe. Google isnt trying to recruit the mythical average person.

Google's tech staff is 20% female. Stanford University's (whose alumni include Google's founders) computer science course is 30% female. The software industry used to be a 50:50 mix until the early 80s. There are clearly larger barriers than biology as to why Google (and Silicon Valley) is so male-dominated. The author quickly mentions this but focuses on the biological.

Here is Google's diversity statement. The goal isn't a 50:50 mix gender mix. The goal is to provide an environment where everyone feels comfortable.
 
Women just aren't applying for technical jobs. I've seen less than a handful since I started working. Many apply for jobs at tech companies, but in non-technical roles.

To try and force the issue is only going to choke the industry.
 
Women just aren't applying for technical jobs.

Yes but why? Why were they happy to apply in the 70s but not now? Has the work changed or has the industry changed? If it's the industry that's changed, how can we change it so that it's more appealing to women?

The tech industry struggles to recruit enough people. Making the environment more agreeable to under-represented parts of the population makes sense from a business perspective.
 
Yes but why? Why were they happy to apply in the 70s but not now? Has the work changed or has the industry changed? If it's the industry that's changed, how can we change it so that it's more appealing to women?

The tech industry struggles to recruit enough people. Making the environment more agreeable to under-represented parts of the population makes sense from a business perspective.

and that is what the memo's author was trying to do...
 
Yes but why? Why were they happy to apply in the 70s but not now? Has the work changed or has the industry changed? If it's the industry that's changed, how can we change it so that it's more appealing to women?

The tech industry struggles to recruit enough people. Making the environment more agreeable to under-represented parts of the population makes sense from a business perspective.

How many times does it need to be stated that less women in certain industries compared to different countries or time periods isn't necessarily down to the industries themselves having an environment or 'culture' that is less friendly to women.

Citing countries that generally have a quite poor recent history regarding actual gender equality (like India) and citing previous ratios in such industries in the UK (like in the 50's and 60's and 70's) which partly sit in times when it was legal to pay a woman less for exactly the same work as a man (equal pay act was 1970 in the uk and maternity leave was first brought into legislation by the employment protection act of 1975) as evidence that certain industries must have become less welcoming to women shows a massive ignorance of statistics and the causation/ correlation fallacy and in which direction cause and effect can take place.

Its a well observed phenomenon that more egalitarian states with more generous welfare and child care provisions seem to often result in less participation by women in certain fields!

Example here: outside of positions where women get in on quotas Nordic counties show generally low progression of women to senior positions despite implemting policies that certain feminists tell us should increase female representation without direct discrimination (which then nordic countries also impose as well via quotas and the like) its notable from the link as well that quotas aren't seen as being that great by the actual companies their inflicted on with a number of companies moving away from being based in areas or run in ways where they would be obliged to hire based on gender and not merit by law.

Shouting about society being bad with regards to sexual equality (usually of outcome) in a few select jobs whilst insiting that more measures should be taken to 'rectify' this dissparity whilst fobbing of or ignoring disparities where men aren't the ones apparently benefiting is the sign of either an ideogue or a person who has not actually bothered to consider the facts.

Rambling on about diversity as being a universally good virtue (it appears above all others) is a rather modern and almost exclusively western affliction. Diversity of opinion may well be important for a company to succeed by ensuring that opportunities are not missed and that the varying and changing needs of customers are addressed. But I'm far from convinced that diversity of sexual organs or skin colour with a rather narrow range of opinions allowed is the way to cororate sucess. Especially if it's anti scientific and evidence in its nature....

Google isnt trying to recruit the mythical average person.

There are clearly larger barriers than biology as to why Google (and Silicon Valley) is so male-dominated. The author quickly mentions this but focuses on the biological.

The the 'average' person doesn't exist I'm sure you're aware of this... The concept of averages is however useful, in part, to explain actual outcomes of populations.......

Are you willing to consider that some of thoose the 'barriers' may be self imposed by women themselves as they choose not to go into or remain in certain industries for reasons of their own?
 
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Are you willing to consider that some of thoose the 'barriers' may be self imposed by women themselves as they choose not to go into or remain in certain industries for reasons of their own?

Absolutely. I think that's a really interesting question. I'd love to know why smart, mathematically-minded women choose not to go into tech. Is it for negative reasons (perceived macho culture, stories of sexual harassment, etc.) or are other industries more appealing for positive reasons?

Do you know of any research around this?

EDIT: I'm also not sure about the benefits/maternity angle. That could certainly hold true for the UK but the US is one of the few industrialised countries without any legal minimum level of maternity leave.
 
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Yes there is research, look up gender equal societies like Norway/Iceland, then look at the profession distribution within those societies.
 
Yes there is research, look up gender equal societies like Norway/Iceland, then look at the profession distribution within those societies.

That explains the what rather than the why. It also doesn't explain the situation in the US.
 
Yes but why? Why were they happy to apply in the 70s but not now? Has the work changed or has the industry changed? If it's the industry that's changed, how can we change it so that it's more appealing to women?

The tech industry struggles to recruit enough people. Making the environment more agreeable to under-represented parts of the population makes sense from a business perspective.

The tech industry was very different back then, with different kind of jobs.
 
That explains the what rather than the why. It also doesn't explain the situation in the US.

Why? because when they are free to choose, they don't do STEM? Society seems to debating a topic which i thought was pretty well settled. Men usually prefer to figure out how things work, where as women on average are better vocally, and.. prefer interaction with people.
I posted a video from Horizon, about what toys monkeys prefer to play with, i'm sure you saw it, there is obviously something biological going on with it, if you want to know the why in terms of biology then you'll probably be waiting a while, i'd think it's pretty complicated, hundreds of thousands of years type complicated, were not gonna understand it within a few years. I can't imagine theres going to be huge investment & grants into finding it out either, it's pretty irrelevant, the evidence is in the most gender equal societies, just let people choose what they want to do. We don't need any drive's or agenda's, that just creates hostility, as seen in Charlottesville..
 
Yes there is research, look up gender equal societies like Norway/Iceland, then look at the profession distribution within those societies.

They (generally) show a higher uptake than the UK and US in both engineering and computer science by women.

No, it's not 50%, but then no one is arguing that it should be.

Yes, there's almost certainly some egalitarian influence, but it's certainly not the only factor involved, and to argue that it is is to completely ignore the complexity of the matter.

Like many subjects just basing variation on a single matter is grossly oversimplifying the matter. It'll almost certainly be a different with each subject as well.
 
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The odd thing is, in the US, you don't even choose what subject you're graduating in initially. At the top universities the initial computer science courses have plenty of women (AFAIK at Berkley they've recently have more women than men enrol in the early CS modules) however, for whatever reasons, this doesn't necessarily translate into women 'majoring' in computer science.
 
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They (generally) show a higher uptake than the UK and US in both engineering and computer science by women.

No, it's not 50%, but then no one is arguing that it should be.

I don't feel that's relevant. The US and the UK are not in the top 10 for gender equal societies. Women aren't as free to choose as they are in the gender equal societies. The data we use, is from the most gender equal societies, and the results are pretty clear, add in animal behavioural studies and it's pretty clear, they just don't enjoy STEM on average. Like i said in the previous post, the internet seem to rehashing a debate which is rather meaningless, just let people do what they enjoy.

Like many subjects just basing variation on a single matter is grossly oversimplifying the matter. It'll almost certainly be a different with each subject as well.

What does society gain from understanding why women don't enjoy STEM as much as men? Not much.
 
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I don't feel that's relevant. The US and the UK are not in the top 10 for gender equal societies. Women aren't as free to choose as they are in the gender equal societies. The data we use, is from the most gender equal societies, and the results are pretty clear, add in animal behavioural studies and it's pretty clear, they just don't enjoy STEM on average. Like i said in the previous post, the internet seem to rehashing a debate which is rather meaningless, just let people do what they enjoy.

Your argument was that more egalitarian societies generally show more women moving away from those subjects was it not? How does that square up to the fact they can have more female engineers and computer scientists, if as you point out the UK and US are not as gender equal. It seems completely relevant.

We should indeed let people do what they enjoy, but the question is are people actually doing that? We should be trying to remove any barriers for people doing that should we not, especially when it involves societal norms and cultures within companies and industries. Is a woman going to enjoy working in an industry surrounded by men making sexual innuendo and full of testosterone, treating them as unequal (either positive or negative) and generally making things difficult (same for men in female dominated industries). Is a woman going to even consider the industry if she doesn't know much about it as the careers advisor by default recommends more female dominated industries, or if she considers the industry for men?

Those are the issues that need looking at, those are the issues that are consistently glossed over when this subject comes up and the ignorance and deflection from those points are some of the reasons the debate is still ongoing.

Just as with the nature vs nurture debate in many other subjects it's still an ongoing question and will be for a long time to come.

While we're focusing on gender here we need to remember it's not the only factor in diversity. One of the other major factors is ethnicity and societal position. Should we argue those are down to biological differences too? Are Asians just inherently better at computer sciences than white and black people, or are they biologically wired differently to enjoy it more? Are people from poor economic backgrounds biologically not as interested in the subject than those from more middle class backgrounds?
 
It's almost impossible now to have a rational discussion about this kind of issue because it has become so polarised. Both sides of the 'gender debate' seem to hold increasingly extreme positions. Both label their counterparts in insulting ways - as either mysogynist men or dictatorial feminists.

This is manifestly not moving things forward. Martin Luther King got it right. He demonstrated that equality is not achieved by coercing people or shaming them but by engaging them.. Coercion merely forces people to find creative ways to discriminate indirectly.

They keep their mouths shut but then vote for Trump or Brexit in the ballot box. The reason coercion doesn't work is quite simply because equality is not a zero sum game. Better opportunities for one group does not have to mean less for another. That is the lie at the root of identity politics.

Until that becomes the dominant message, this will all get more and more divisive, which concerns me because we run the risk of triggering serious reversal of the achievements of recent decades.
 
It's almost impossible now to have a rational discussion about this kind of issue because it has become so polarised. Both sides of the 'gender debate' seem to hold increasingly extreme positions. Both label their counterparts in insulting ways - as either mysogynist men or dictatorial feminists.

This is manifestly not moving things forward. Martin Luther King got it right. He demonstrated that equality is not achieved by coercing people or shaming them but by engaging them.. Coercion merely forces people to find creative ways to discriminate indirectly.

They keep their mouths shut but then vote for Trump or Brexit in the ballot box. The reason coercion doesn't work is quite simply because equality is not a zero sum game. Better opportunities for one group does not have to mean less for another. That is the lie at the root of identity politics.

Until that becomes the dominant message, this will all get more and more divisive, which concerns me because we run the risk of triggering serious reversal of the achievements of recent decades.

2020 is going to be interesting and frightening at the same time on how bad things can become if things don't go their way. Considering the current events. :/

I honestly think it is going to become a lot worse the way how intolerant people have become. You're either for or against. There is no normality in the middle. Or appears that way. The movement today seems to be you've to pick a side or have your character destroyed.

Kind of like ISIS. Conform or die so to speak but they'll destroy your career since everything is about populism. Though really it is the bullies that are winning since it is a mob mentality. Mostly everyone and the corporates follow whatever the trend is. Internet life has now become real life.
 
How many times does it need to be stated that less women in certain industries compared to different countries or time periods isn't necessarily down to the industries themselves having an environment or 'culture' that is less friendly to women.

Citing countries that generally have a quite poor recent history regarding actual gender equality (like India) and citing previous ratios in such industries in the UK (like in the 50's and 60's and 70's) which partly sit in times when it was legal to pay a woman less for exactly the same work as a man (equal pay act was 1970 in the uk and maternity leave was first brought into legislation by the employment protection act of 1975) as evidence that certain industries must have become less welcoming to women shows a massive ignorance of statistics and the causation/ correlation fallacy and in which direction cause and effect can take place.

Its a well observed phenomenon that more egalitarian states with more generous welfare and child care provisions seem to often result in less participation by women in certain fields!

Example here: outside of positions where women get in on quotas Nordic counties show generally low progression of women to senior positions despite implemting policies that certain feminists tell us should increase female representation without direct discrimination (which then nordic countries also impose as well via quotas and the like) its notable from the link as well that quotas aren't seen as being that great by the actual companies their inflicted on with a number of companies moving away from being based in areas or run in ways where they would be obliged to hire based on gender and not merit by law.

Shouting about society being bad with regards to sexual equality (usually of outcome) in a few select jobs whilst insiting that more measures should be taken to 'rectify' this dissparity whilst fobbing of or ignoring disparities where men aren't the ones apparently benefiting is the sign of either an ideogue or a person who has not actually bothered to consider the facts.

Rambling on about diversity as being a universally good virtue (it appears above all others) is a rather modern and almost exclusively western affliction. Diversity of opinion may well be important for a company to succeed by ensuring that opportunities are not missed and that the varying and changing needs of customers are addressed. But I'm far from convinced that diversity of sexual organs or skin colour with a rather narrow range of opinions allowed is the way to cororate sucess. Especially if it's anti scientific and evidence in its nature....



The the 'average' person doesn't exist I'm sure you're aware of this... The concept of averages is however useful, in part, to explain actual outcomes of populations.......

Are you willing to consider that some of thoose the 'barriers' may be self imposed by women themselves as they choose not to go into or remain in certain industries for reasons of their own?

Well put.
 
2020 is going to be interesting and frightening at the same time on how bad things can become if things don't go their way. Considering the current events. :/

I honestly think it is going to become a lot worse the way how intolerant people have become. You're either for or against. There is no normality in the middle. Or appears that way. The movement today seems to be you've to pick a side or have your character destroyed.

Kind of like ISIS. Conform or die so to speak but they'll destroy your career since everything is about populism. Though really it is the bullies that are winning since it is a mob mentality. Mostly everyone and the corporates follow whatever the trend is. Internet life has now become real life.

Everyone is just as intolerant as each other left or right doesn't matter.

All the same to me, morons gonna moron.
 
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