Barcelona Incident

Dis86 said:
Precisely! You're doing exactly what I said and seeing their opinions as worth less because you don't share their views. Just like they saw/see certain other people as being worth less...
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Nazis think they are genetically superior to other races, that is why they think other peoples views are worth less.

Normal people dont think this.

Normal people think Nazi views are worthless because Nazis want to use violence to exterminate or subjugate all the "inferior" races.
 
VincentHanna said:
Nazis think they are genetically superior to other races, that is why they think other peoples views are worth less.

Normal people dont think this.

Normal people think Nazi views are worthless because Nazis want to use violence to exterminate or subjugate all the "inferior" races.
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And the leftist protesters did exactly that. Used violence to try and subjugate the Nazi and right wing protestors.
 
I've still not seen any evidence the counter protestors started the violence as you have claimed numerous times

I've heard the chief of police state that the rally goers (i.e the right) antagonistically deviated from their pre-agreed route to put them in direct, head-on contact with counter protestors

I've heard accounts from the citizens of Charlottesville who state the Nazi's marching through their town were violent.

I've seen images of Nazis doing Nazi salutes

I've seen a video of armed white supremacists saying they are prepared to use violence

I've seen videos of right wingers saying "blood and soil" and "Jews will not replace us"

I've not seen anything that says the left started the violence.
 
Dis86 said:
They were carrying legally owned weapons or. They didn't shoot any one. They didn't start the violence.

Again it's views vs actions. It is not ok to harm someone just because you don't like their views.
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They marched through minority neighbourhoods dressed like that chanting racially and religiously inflammatory things. They were tooled up because they were looking for trouble.

Why was that ok but, say, peaceful Native American protestors at standing rock were beaten, hosed, gassed and arrested in great numbers? It couldn't be racism built deep into the system, could it? No, certainly not.
 
VincentHanna said:
I've still not seen any evidence the counter protestors started the violence as you have claimed numerous times

I've heard the chief of police state that the rally goers (i.e the right) antagonistically deviated from their pre-agreed route to put them in direct, head-on contact with counter protestors

I've heard accounts from the citizens of Charlottesville who state the Nazi's marching through their town were violent.

I've seen images of Nazis doing Nazi salutes

I've seen a video of armed white supremacists saying they are prepared to use violence

I've seen videos of right wingers saying "blood and soil" and "Jews will not replace us"

I've not seen anything that says the left started the violence.
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Report from the LA times from several eye witnesses:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesses-20170815-story.html

When it comes to instigating the violence both sides seem to be at fault and both sides seem to be to blame. Both sides went expecting and wanting trouble. So as far as instigating violence both sides are just as bad as each other. When it comes to ideology both sides are bad but one is much worse than the other (one wants to stifle free speech and ensure only their ideology is allowed, the other wants to exterminate all those they see as inferior). As far as the results of the violence both sides were bad but one was much worse than the other (beating old men up with sticks vs driving into a crowd with a car).
 
Vonhelmet said:
They marched through minority neighbourhoods dressed like that chanting racially and religiously inflammatory things. They were tooled up because they were looking for trouble.

Why was that ok but, say, peaceful Native American protestors at standing rock were beaten, hosed, gassed and arrested in great numbers? It couldn't be racism built deep into the system, could it? No, certainly not.
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They had a permit to march.

Also where have I said the treatment of Native American protesters was acceptable? In fact I believe in the thread at the time I condemned it.
 
Dis86 said:
They had a permit to march.

Also where have I said the treatment of Native American protesters was acceptable? In fact I believe in the thread at the time I condemned it.
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They didn't have a permit to march into plenty of the areas where they ended up, though, did they?
 
Dis86 said:
They had a permit to march.
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And so did the counter-protesters.

But the white supremacists disregarded the agreed route, and insisted on marching in places they had no permit for. They did this deliberately, with the intention of clashing with the counter-protesters.
 
Evangelion said:
And so did the counter-protesters.

But the white supremacists disregarded the agreed route, and insisted on marching in places they had no permit for. They did this deliberately, with the intention of clashing with the counter-protesters.
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I'm not disputing that the counter-protesters did? Not sure why that's even a valid point to make unless you're somehow trying to justify their actions? And i'll repeat again for the hard of reading - both sides were idiots.
 

The wikipedia entry is wrong. Academia has a predominently Left-Wing bias and there's recurrent redefinition of Fascism as a Right Wing. Heaven forfend the idea that the Left could be corruptible. I've repeatedly given examples of why it is Left Wing. The Italian Fascist Party - the group that re-introduced and defined Fascism in the modern world - were an off-shoot of the Italian Socialist Party. They retained numerous Left Wing positions such as socialised universal health care, wage controls, state management of businesses and others. And they had a populist working class support base. The Nazis were very similar and also explicitly socialist. The chief distinctions between the Fascists and the Communists were that the Fascists were highly nationalistic whilst the communists sought political alliance with communists in other countries; and that the Fascists weren't radical on wealth distribution.

Many, many academics love to describe Fascism as Right Wing. Many Left Wing protestors love to as well. But Fascism is a Left Wing ideology with some Right Wing elements.
 
Freakbro said:
I do find it quite ironic that the 'moderate' right wingers feel the need to partially defend the rights of the extreme right, because they feel unjustifiably lumped in with them....are usually the same people who say there is no such thing as a 'moderate' Muslim and lump them all together (that's a general comment, not directed at you Dis)
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I don't believe that is the case. It may be your perception but we all know about confirmation bias. I know that I am defending the right to free speech and have never said anything at all like there being no such thing as a moderate muslim. In fact, I'm certain I have argued strongly against people on this forum who do see muslims as a homogenous blob. And I don't think I'm exceptional. Look at the people you're arguing with - which of us do you think has ever said there is no such things as a moderate muslim. Moderate muslims are the majority of muslims. Your post above reads as ad hominem, frankly.
 
RDM said:
Report from the LA times from several eye witnesses:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesses-20170815-story.html

When it comes to instigating the violence both sides seem to be at fault and both sides seem to be to blame. Both sides went expecting and wanting trouble. So as far as instigating violence both sides are just as bad as each other. When it comes to ideology both sides are bad but one is much worse than the other (one wants to stifle free speech and ensure only their ideology is allowed, the other wants to exterminate all those they see as inferior). As far as the results of the violence both sides were bad but one was much worse than the other (beating old men up with sticks vs driving into a crowd with a car).
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This isn't a reply to you specifically RDM, but your post makes an excellent leaping off point for something I want to say.

A lot of those criticising us keep focusing on whether Nazis are "equally bad" as Antifa. And they want us to say this is false - that Nazis are far worse. They see people equating these two groups and it angers them because they of course consider Nazis to be far worse. But the reason for the resistance to just nod and agree with them isn't to do with relative morality of Nazis and Antifa. It's because we don't see it as a question of who is most evil. We see it as a question of who is dangerous. And frankly, 250 protestors (estimate I found for those showing up for Unite The Right), some disproportionately photographed faction of which are Nazis, don't scare me much. Such people are a tiny minority in the USA and the UK. Worth keeping an eye on but realistically, I don't feel much threatened by such people. There always have been and always will be idiots and fringe political groups. Conversely I DO feel threatened by Antifa and all those aligned with them who want to shut down free speech, criminalise beliefs, smash down the existing power structures in favour of one governed by their values, etc. The number of such people is very large and they have a disproportionate effect relative to their numbers on public policy, on law-making and on one's actual life. They are the ones who get people fired for their beliefs, set fire to university campuses, prevent people from speaking in public, and more.

So all those who keep demanding: "Say Nazis are worse, say Nazis are worse!" wont get what they want. It's not because ethically people don't think they're worse. It's because we're saying in practical effect, we don't think they're worse. Or at least that we think they're just the same.

It's not a moral question. It's a practical one. And if it's a practical one then two groups who both want to bring violence are the same. You can keep demanding moral answers, but you're asking it of practical people.
 
h4rm0ny said:
This isn't a reply to you specifically RDM, but your post makes an excellent leaping off point for something I want to say.

A lot of those criticising us keep focusing on whether Nazis are "equally bad" as Antifa. And they want us to say this is false - that Nazis are far worse. They see people equating these two groups and it angers them because they of course consider Nazis to be far worse. But the reason for the resistance to just nod and agree with them isn't to do with relative morality of Nazis and Antifa. It's because we don't see it as a question of who is most evil. We see it as a question of who is dangerous. And frankly, 250 protestors (estimate I found for those showing up for Unite The Right), some disproportionately photographed faction of which are Nazis, don't scare me much. Such people are a tiny minority in the USA and the UK. Worth keeping an eye on but realistically, I don't feel much threatened by such people. There always have been and always will be idiots and fringe political groups. Conversely I DO feel threatened by Antifa and all those aligned with them who want to shut down free speech, criminalise beliefs, smash down the existing power structures in favour of one governed by their values, etc. The number of such people is very large and they have a disproportionate effect relative to their numbers on public policy, on law-making and on one's actual life. They are the ones who get people fired for their beliefs, set fire to university campuses, prevent people from speaking in public, and more.

So all those who keep demanding: "Say Nazis are worse, say Nazis are worse!" wont get what they want. It's not because ethically people don't think they're worse. It's because we're saying in practical effect, we don't think they're worse. Or at least that we think they're just the same.

It's not a moral question. It's a practical one. And if it's a practical one then two groups who both want to bring violence are the same. You can keep demanding moral answers, but you're asking it of practical people.
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You've hit the nail on the head and seems to be what most either don't want to hear, don't understand or don't want to be brought into the spotlight.

Nazi scumbags aren't violently shutting down peaceful protests, lectures etc... or weponising the term racist for their own good.
 
Dis86 said:
Precisely the point I was making in the Charlottesville thread.
You must want to bash a Nazis head in otherwise you're one of them.
You must rip down civil war statues of southern soldiers otherwise you're a racist.
You must
You must

It's almost akin to holocaust denial. Sorry folks, bad news, it happened. History shouldn't be deleted. Heroic actions and sacrifice shouldn't be forgotten because those in question are deemed to have fought on the wrong side. Many confederate soldiers would not have owned and could not have owned slaves but rather they fought for their country, homes, friends and families and yet their memory is being erased.

You know who else is really good at tearing down historical statues and monuments? ISIS and the Taliban.

We have people posting who are so blinded by their prejudices they've fallen in to this very trap. One of them even admitted it.
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Well said Dis.

I also agree with Rroff's post, they are trying to split us all down the middle.
I also noticed this, CNN are actually at it right now.

Rroff said:
I wonder if there has been some kind of organised campaign - mid to late July, early August sites like BBC and CNN, etc. were chock full, like 75+%, of the front page entries were new through to extreme obscure and old dragged up stories and articles about things like women priests, feminists Muslim controversies, partition and apartheid, LGBT issues, gender neutrality, anti-racism and anti-sexism and various other social justice issues, etc. etc. suddenly post Virginia its dropped off to like the more normal 20%.

It almost seemed to me like some kind of attempt to force a new "normal" perspective.
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Oh, and haha at the usual apologists, i give up replying to them unless i feel bored and need a laugh, especially the one who likes to drop names.
 
VincentHanna said:
I'd never even heard of AntiFa until Charlottesville, so I hardly think they are some huge danger to your way of life.
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Not even the Antifa "Bike lock" guy? At least now you know they are far worse, far more evil and far MORE fascist than the idiot neo-nazi cosplayers.
 
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