Do I really need 5.1 / surround sound?

[Domo]

Or, will a couple of hefty floor standing speakers at the front do a good enough job? It's only a small room we're converting to a snug with a wall mounted 65" TV.

Room dimensions are approx 3 x 3 m.

Never had surround sound before + not sure of the benefits in such a small room. Seen some lovely floor standing speakers. Guess they could be incorporated into a 5.1.

Thoughts welcome.

 

[jpaul]

Use a 2.0 setup myself (hi-fi amp + floor speakers), some reasons why I do/don't want to invest in 5.1

• Much of the material I watch, or the media sources (nowtv, freeview) don't have 5.1 available
• Hassle of having to install additional speakers, no clearance behind prinicipal listening position and would not want a speaker 1m from my ear (I think surround sound speakers may also compromise sound quality significantly, they have to achieve form over function so that people will accept them in the standard living room, also sceptical that equalization capabilities of A/V amps are genuinely able to accomodate for room)
  
• I would consider getting an a/v processor, so that for material that is in 5.1 could mix the centre vocal channel better into the 2.0 speakers.(but maybe this would not help some of recent BBC productions that have been castigated for poor vocals)
• woudl invest in an oled/better quality tv before 5.1 too.

you don't say how you will connect the tv to the existing speakers ?
... obviously using a optical/hdmi out from the TV into the Amp driving the speakers, or optical into a DAC, will do a better job than connecting to rca outputs on the tv.

 

[mushtafa]

If you enjoy TV and films, invest in 5.1

 

[FurryLemon]

A lot depends on your usage and budget.

What sort of price range are you looking at here?

 

[Domo]

Budget's not really an issue - though would like to stick to around 5k. Thinking 3.5ish for the TV then remainder on 4K br player + audio (amp and nice floor standing speakers).
It's more about aesthetics for me. I have this idea that the room will be extremely minimalist. Clean lines, white walls. Not speakers all over the place and the dreaded central speaker ruining the look.

Some interesting points raised here though. Thanks guys.

 

[FurryLemon]

OK.

Starting point -

Speakers £800 http://petertyson.co.uk/index.php/monitor-audio-silver-6-speakers-high-gloss-black.html?___SID=U
Amp with digital input £300 http://petertyson.co.uk/index.php/yamaha-a-s501-integrated-amplifier.html?___SID=U

That'll leave 400 for cable and a 4k player.

edit - Richer Sounds are currently doing the MA 6 for £500 which is a nice little bargain https://www.richersounds.com/hi-fi/floorstanding-speakers/monitor-audio-silver-6-walnut.html

I don't think you need to go over a 6" woofer for that size room. If you want bigger the Silver 8 are 800 and the silver 10 are 1k. These are outgoing models so won't last long.

 

[tom_nieto]

I use a 2.0 system which I've been very happy with for a numbers of years. For a small room in my opinion a well setup stereo system will be as good as a mediocre surround setup. Rear speakers especially will be tricky to get right if you're sat very close to them. I used to have a matching centre and rears, but due to lack of space, hassle and frankly not really reaping the full benefits I've got rid. Decent front speakers should give you good stereo imaging anyway and you should be able to track sounds and voices quite clearly with good positioning. I have never wanted for a subwoofer with my floorstanding front speakers as my viewing/listening room has always been small.

The smart move would be to get a stereo setup first and expand as you see fit, just take care not to buy a poor multichannel AV amp over a decent stereo only amp as this will lead to disappointment in stereo and subsequent expansion to multichannel listening.

As far as digital inputs go you could look into buying a separate DAC and analogue stereo amp as another option rather than limit your choices to stereo amps with digital inputs.

 

[hornetstinger]

No reasonbly speaker is capable of equalling the performance of a subwoofer, so for action movies a sub is essential. Even my floorstanders with 3 x 8" drivers, and 36hz F3 do not come close to the subwoofer, and a good 12" ported sub will utterly waste them.

Plus the power demands on a speaker set to "full" is far greater. So you may save money by not getting a subwoofer, but you need more power, or the power you get has higher distortion, degraded sound quality and you get less dynamic range as a result.

Much of the material I watch, or the media sources (nowtv, freeview) don't have 5.1 available

AVR's can expand stereo, and even mono to 7.1 and they do a fanstic job. For example my av pre is a Lexicon MC-8, and even with mono it sounds great. Watching Akira Kurosawa Seven Samurai, battle sounds that are from behind on screen come from behind on the speakers, as the arrows fly and they come from behind you. Amazing stuff. Same for Pro-Logic, it can expand to 7.1 (discrete stereo sides and rears) And it works for stereo concerts, older stereo TV shows etc. Or you could mix mono to stereo, or just leave mono to mono, or downmix 5.1 to stereo.

Hassle of having to install additional speakers, no clearance behind prinicipal listening position and would not want a speaker 1m from my ear (I think surround sound speakers may also compromise sound quality significantly, they have to achieve form over function so that people will accept them in the standard living room, also sceptical that equalization capabilities of A/V amps are genuinely able to accomodate for room)

Not really much more of a hassle, just speaker wire across the room and it's done once. Also if your rear/side speakers are close to you, I would recommend bipole speakers. I'm about 1M from side/rears and I use bipoles..

Since surround speakers have more drivers per speaker, they typically cost more than the similar range front speakers. For example if you had Kef Q15's for fronts, then the dipole rears probably cost £400. So I would recommend second hand surround speakers. There is some form over function with surrounds, however since the sound is mostly effects not speech, then "standmount" style is sufficient (treble x 2, midrange/woofer x2) as I doubt anyone could get away with using 50kg, 1.5' wide & deep, chest height floorstanders for side and rears.

woudl invest in an oled/better quality tv before 5.1 too.

Sound is 50% of the home theatre. So why would you compromise sound?

For a smaller room, I'd get a midrange AVR, say £350 Yamaha, with Q Acoustics 2000/3000 series, bipole rears, and 10" or 12" sealed box sub.

I don't think you need to go over a 6" woofer for that size room.

I have similar sized room. I use a 13.5" 1000W sub. Sound fab. 6" is little more than a lower midrange woofer. I'd get something like the XLS200 as a minimum.

I have never wanted for a subwoofer with my floorstanding front speakers as my viewing/listening room has always been small.

For a home cinema, you should get a subwoofer. The only reason I wouldn't get a subwoofer if this was for music, pure 2 channel system only with floorstanders, or you just aren't into action movies. But if you have anything smaller than standmounts for a movie system a sub is essential.

You can get away with not having a sub in certain circumstances. For example for my PC system I'm using a AVR, with large standmounts, no sub. I'm close to it so a sub will be too much. Or in the other room I floorstanders in hifi, so sub isn't needed

 

[FurryLemon]

By 6" woofer I meant a 6" driver. My bad.

OP states a desire for a clean minimalist look with good speakers and you come up with QA 5.0 package and a 10-12" ported sub in a 3*3 room. Genius....

 

[hornetstinger]

By 6" woofer I meant a 6" driver. My bad.

OP states a desire for a clean minimalist look with good speakers and you come up with QA 5.0 package and a 10-12" ported sub in a 3*3 room. Genius....

Sealed.

Q Acoustics speakers are pretty small, and so is a 12" sealed box. That is quite a minimalist look, and they are good speakers.

 

[FurryLemon]

Good speakers for their price bracket*

His budget allows him to aim higher.

 

[hornetstinger]

Good speakers for their price bracket*

His budget allows him to aim higher.

In my opinion you need to spend a fair bit more than Q Acoustics (and the source etc) to make speaker upgrade worthwhile. They're good mid size speakers. Or buy second hand.

What about auction number
182735610827

That is £1600 worth of speakers right there for the front three

 

[hornetstinger]

Also it's far easier to get floorstanders sounding good in a small room with a AV system, than it is with floorstanders in a small room with a stereo system.

With a (hifi) system there is no bass managment you run it full range so if your floorstander speakers sound boomy, there is nothing you can do. In a AV system you just use bass management in addition (and/or with room EQ) with a subwoofer to get it sound spot on.

Also some floorstanders work better in smaller rooms than other floorstanders.

So in smaller room, standmounts with a subwoofer may be a better option- (in a stereo system) you just bring up the subwoofer to where stands roll off. Or if you have floorstanders, then use bass management in the AVR

 

[MissChief]

OK.

Starting point -

Speakers £800 http://petertyson.co.uk/index.php/monitor-audio-silver-6-speakers-high-gloss-black.html?___SID=U
Amp with digital input £300 http://petertyson.co.uk/index.php/yamaha-a-s501-integrated-amplifier.html?___SID=U

That'll leave 400 for cable and a 4k player.

edit - Richer Sounds are currently doing the MA 6 for £500 which is a nice little bargain https://www.richersounds.com/hi-fi/floorstanding-speakers/monitor-audio-silver-6-walnut.html

I don't think you need to go over a 6" woofer for that size room. If you want bigger the Silver 8 are 800 and the silver 10 are 1k. These are outgoing models so won't last long.

I'm not sure I need 5.1 suddenly becomes 'here's a list of components that cost £1k'?

If he wants clean and minimalist that's not going to work. Have you considered a high end sound bar? The new Sky Soundbox in conjunction with Devialet might be worth investigating.

 

[hornetstinger]

I'm not sure I need 5.1 suddenly becomes 'here's a list of components that cost £1k'?

Typically I would recommend floorstanders that are around £1000. I've found more affordable floorstanders just a bit lacking, so if you have a lower budget, go for standmounts.

£300 for a stereo amplifier isn't a lot, I'd say that's about right price I'd be looking at, for a good but affordable amplifier. Also if you have a lower budget, buy second hand. My front speakers cost less than Monitor Audio Silver 6, but they're in the same price range as the Gold 300's.

For subs I'd be looking at ideally £500, it's worth spending a fair whack to get a great one, rather than make do with something that sounds like a cow farting.

 

[FurryLemon]

Also it's far easier to get floorstanders sounding good in a small room with a AV system, than it is with floorstanders in a small room with a stereo system.

With a (hifi) system there is no bass managment you run it full range so if your floorstander speakers sound boomy, there is nothing you can do. In a AV system you just use bass management in addition (and/or with room EQ) with a subwoofer to get it sound spot on.

Also some floorstanders work better in smaller rooms than other floorstanders.

So in smaller room, standmounts with a subwoofer may be a better option- (in a stereo system) you just bring up the subwoofer to where stands roll off. Or if you have floorstanders, then use bass management in the AVR

This is why in a dedicated hifi setup you will notice a lot of people have their speakers quite a way out from the walls. With my front ported speakers they're a foot from the wall. It all about time and changing speaker layout. Sometimes you can be listening for months before your final placement is decided. With a home cinema setup is doesn't matter that much if you have a typical plasterboard English house.

I'm not sure I need 5.1 suddenly becomes 'here's a list of components that cost £1k'?

If he wants clean and minimalist that's not going to work. Have you considered a high end sound bar? The new Sky Soundbox in conjunction with Devialet might be worth investigating.

He set the budget. 3.5k for the tv which will be an 65" oled at that price, then the rest for audio and 4k spinner. A split of 800 speakers/300 amp is just about right. I generally prefer to spend half the speaker rrp on an amp, but for the MA silver 6 the Yamaha is more then capable.

The MA Silver 6 are not a big floorstander, as they're only a measly 16kg each. Also at this price bracket MA produce some of the finest finishes on speakers, so they will fit in very well with a minimalist clean look.

 

[wolfie138]

definitely go 5.1 if you can, i find a good sound mix can add a lot to a film. there are occassions though - The Pacific being one example - where the sub is just way overpowering. good rear stereo would be a must-have for me, i could live w/out the subwoof if i had to.

65" screen is going to be fairly intimidating in a 3x3 room

 

[hornetstinger]

definitely go 5.1 if you can, i find a good sound mix can add a lot to a film. there are occassions though - The Pacific being one example - where the sub is just way overpowering. good rear stereo would be a must-have for me, i could live w/out the subwoof if i had to.

65" screen is going to be fairly intimidating in a 3x3 room

If it's DTS, sometimes I find DTS mix "too hot"

Also LFE can be upto 120hz, I find this causes boominess, so I have set LFE on my Lexicon to 80hz. It may not be correct, but it sounds better for music especially, and movies. I'm not sure what is happening to the 80-120hz LFE contents, it's either discareded or re-directed to the 5.0 speakers. Not sure.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

if your thinking about buying a 4k blu ray player and a 65" tv then IMO surround sound would be a must. in fact i'd go for a atmos setup given your budget of £5K for everything.

however i do think 3m by 3m is small. it would depend on the layout of the room. put it this way 4k blu ray players aren't cheap, neither are the movies. so why skimp on the sound? sound is 50% of the experience. in fact sound adds much more to the experience than the screen does IMO.

imagine watching a car chase for example. you see the fast moving images, etc. now imagine you could feel the engine roaring away as if you were there. i always laugh when i see someone with a large tv but using inbuilt speakers. they don't have a clue what they are missing out on.

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

Thoughts:
- £1500 for amp and speakers is very much "mid range"
- I have a 5.1 system, but with that budget, I'd suggest go with stereo. I really don't rate low end AVRs. Build up to a good stereo solution, then at a later date, tack on the rear channels
- S/h will get you a better price/performance ratio. Go with a decent manufacturer and kit tends to last very well
- The room WILL be a problem, almost regardless of what you go with. Easiest solution is digital room correction, which at the very least can get rid of the typical bass "hump" that you'll get on most rooms. AVRs tend to have it built in, but again, some are "not great". You can get external boxes (e.g. Behringer DEQ2496).
If you run a music/theatre server, the easiest solution is a software based solution, some of which are free. All you then need is a mic to measure it with and set it up