Do I really need 5.1 / surround sound?

[hornetstinger]

if your thinking about buying a 4k blu ray player and a 65" tv then IMO surround sound would be a must. in fact i'd go for a atmos setup given your budget of £5K for everything.

however i do think 3m by 3m is small. it would depend on the layout of the room. put it this way 4k blu ray players aren't cheap, neither are the movies. so why skimp on the sound? sound is 50% of the experience. in fact sound adds much more to the experience than the screen does IMO.

imagine watching a car chase for example. you see the fast moving images, etc. now imagine you could feel the engine roaring away as if you were there. i always laugh when i see someone with a large tv but using inbuilt speakers. they don't have a clue what they are missing out on.

yep like hearing an American V8 in real life, it's the same on screen for my system. If you just use 1" speakers you don't get the same thing.

Last time I demoed the system he was literally scared, from scenes like Saving Private Ryan intro. Machine guns loud, heavy calibre thumping your chest, and mortar and grenades shaking the room, flexing the windows, floors.

 

[jpaul]

The smart move would be to get a stereo setup first and expand as you see fit, just take care not to buy a poor multichannel AV amp over a decent stereo only amp as this will lead to disappointment in stereo and subsequent expansion to multichannel listening.

With a (hifi) system there is no bass managment you run it full range so if your floorstander speakers sound boomy, there is nothing you can do. In a AV system you just use bass management in addition (and/or with room EQ) with a subwoofer to get it sound spot on.

+1 consider an incremental approach, with, initially, a couple of full range floorstanders ( 50Hz – 20kHz +/-2dB ) plus a multichannel AV amp that allows for EQ'ing them and sending them LFE/base component, within the speakers capabilities.


Domo, what, if any, % of media will be music (cd/streamed) ?

Also LFE can be upto 120hz, I find this causes boominess, so I have set LFE on my Lexicon to 80hz. It may not be correct, but it sounds better for music especially, and movies. I'm not sure what is happening to the 80-120hz LFE contents, it's either discareded or re-directed to the 5.0 speakers. Not sure.

(curious ...) Is it not within the scope of the Lexicon auto-eq/calibration to tune out the boominess ?

 

[hornetstinger]

50hz floorstanders aren't full range. For a full-range speaker you need one with a subwoofer. Even my large speakers 3 x 8" aren't full-range and I would not set them to that (in a home cinema) In a Hifi it's fine of course becuase 2 channel music doesn't have the extreme LF as you do in movies.

My Lexicon MC-8 doesn't have any auto EQ, that's the top of the range MC-12EQ. I'm just using a antoimode 8033 cinema.

 

[tom_nieto]

Thoughts:
- £1500 for amp and speakers is very much "mid range"
- I have a 5.1 system, but with that budget, I'd suggest go with stereo. I really don't rate low end AVRs. Build up to a good stereo solution, then at a later date, tack on the rear channels
- S/h will get you a better price/performance ratio. Go with a decent manufacturer and kit tends to last very well
- The room WILL be a problem, almost regardless of what you go with. Easiest solution is digital room correction, which at the very least can get rid of the typical bass "hump" that you'll get on most rooms. AVRs tend to have it built in, but again, some are "not great". You can get external boxes (e.g. Behringer DEQ2496).
If you run a music/theatre server, the easiest solution is a software based solution, some of which are free. All you then need is a mic to measure it with and set it up

Listen carefully to this advice.

Do not discount second hand hifi kit, at £1500 you'll be buying from an enthusiast who has cherished the equipment. You'd be incredibly unlucky to encounter problems with a well known brand.

The second hand exception would be av receivers as you need to be quite careful to buy one with the features that you require.

 

[Kei]

2.7m square room here and I run a 5.1 system. (well I binned the centre so 4.1 technically) I concentrated on stereo with the option of surround when I wanted it. Front speakers are some vintage tannoy 10" super red studio monitors, which combine with a home built 10" sub woofer and a pair of 6.5" in ceiling speakers that work as surrounds. This is then powered separately from stereo power amplifiers which go through a marantz AV7701 pre/processor so I can literally switch on what I want/need as and when.

 

[sastusbulbas]

Never been happy with surround for movies and music, and even if your watching movies from the 60's to the current day of different genres you may find you tweak the system for different movies.

For movies ONLY. Yeah surround is great, but a good stereo set up can do a great job and is usually better with music and depth perspective.

You really want speakers to seamlessly blend and dissapear, a lot easier with higher end stereo than surround sound with speakers pointing tweeters at you from within 2m.

As for low end, well I ran two custom 15" subs in a budget cinema within a room roughly 80ft square, tuned that to 25hz to maintain some weight and slam as the room was just too demanding.

At home my Kef R107 have no problems with low end weight or slam, going below 20hz running off my Krell amps.

But I do feel some movies are better with a sub, not because stereo lacks, but because the sound has been mixed with a sub and the PCM stereo downmix seems to lose some of the information.

I may be wrong, certainly felt it with Godzilla.

 

[jpaul]

Thoughts:
....
....
- The room WILL be a problem, almost regardless of what you go with. Easiest solution is digital room correction, which at the very least can get rid of the typical bass "hump" that you'll get on most rooms. AVRs tend to have it built in, but again, some are "not great". You can get external boxes (e.g. Behringer DEQ2496).
If you run a music/theatre server, the easiest solution is a software based solution, some of which are free. All you then need is a mic to measure it with and set it up

What would be an example of a equalization pre-amp that you would recommend s/h.?

The Behringer DEQ2496 you discuss would, I guess, need a 'box' to split and decode the multi-channel 5.1 audio compressed signal from the tv hdmi, or would use use a down-mixed 2.0/stereo output from the tv. ?

 

[hornetstinger]

But I do feel some movies are better with a sub, not because stereo lacks, but because the sound has been mixed with a sub and the PCM stereo downmix seems to lose some of the information.

Yup definiely, I can switch between PCM and bitstream and it is immediate.

What would be an example of a equalization pre-amp that you would recommend s/h.?

Bloody expensive, you are literally looking at several thousand pounds. Unless you go for BFD or another Behringer unit, but you'll spend hours.
To split HDMI to analogue you'll need a decoder box.

Just buy a AVR, for both scenarios.

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

What would be an example of a equalization pre-amp that you would recommend s/h.?

The Behringer DEQ2496 you discuss would, I guess, need a 'box' to split and decode the multi-channel 5.1 audio compressed signal from the tv hdmi, or would use use a down-mixed 2.0/stereo output from the tv. ?

Options that spring to mind for a stereo solution are:
1. Use a PC or similar as a source, and run room EQ software on it
2. Downmix to stereo from say a BD player, output via Optical SPDIF to the DEQ2496, then onto a stereo amp
3. Buy a legacy top end AV amp from say Yamaha or Denon. As they don't have the latest gizmos, they're usually a bargain. I've seen units originally costing £2k available for a tenth of that now. Some will include room correction.

Clearly there are other options, but most of them are substantially more expensive, e.g. a mini-dsp box (runs DIRAC), or AV processor with room correction built in (e.g. Meridian G68).

 

[Bobmunkhouse]

Im using 4.0.....really happy with it. The front speakers are close to TV so seem no need for center and not a great bass fan....rear speakers are good for music also in dual stereo mode.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Im using 4.0.....really happy with it. The front speakers are close to TV so seem no need for center and not a great bass fan....rear speakers are good for music also in dual stereo mode.

the centre channel is supposedly one of the most important due it typically being used for speech. by not having it usually means you can barely hear what is being said when it's outsourced to other speakers and drowned out by other sounds being played by those speakers naturally.

 

[varkanoid]

having 5.1 sound is like going from a SD b/w CRT picture to 4k.

 

[jpaul]

the centre channel is supposedly one of the most important due it typically being used for speech

the 2.0 downmix already on the blu-ray or the automatic downmixing (see earlier post ) is supposed to preserve the speech integrity/level,
I am sceptical, and think that is why many movies (BBC, blu-ray) do not sound great (vocals indistinct) on my 2.0.
I would like to have control of that mix, which I think I could only get with

• a soft/PC solution with MPC-HC say, I have not tried ripping a blu to see if this solution is effective, and, what kind of PC power is needed - will an i7q cut it, and allow you to browse OC at the same time
  
• an AV that gives you downmix control, but I am not sure if such an AV exists (they just do what the downmix metadata in the 5.1 stream says)

having 5.1 sound is like going from a SD b/w CRT picture to 4k.

IF you can genuinely get 5.1 in the average living room with all the acoustics/equalization/echos sorted out, then agree it probably is, but I don't see that the processing
power on AV's is really up to the task, sorting stereo is difficult enough ,
on the other hand, the viewing environments is much easier to sort (with a calibration)

 

[hornetstinger]

My AV pre has a dialogue enhance setting, it really does work. A few movies has the speech really low (messed up mix) I think one of the Critters movies- that sorted it, so if you have 4.1 you can use that.

 

[Bobmunkhouse]

Im using 4.0.....really happy with it. The front speakers are close to TV so seem no need for center and not a great bass fan....rear speakers are good for music also in dual stereo mode.

Hmmm seems ok...not sure I could fit or convince the wife on an extra one...

 

[jpaul]

for downmixing 5.1 to 2.0 in pc/software seems to be consensus on

ffmpeg options (front/back|left/right/centre)
-af "pan=stereo|FL < 1.0*FL + 0.707*FC + 0.707*BL|FR < 1.0*FR + 0.707*FC + 0.707*BR"

apparently 0.707 corresponds to a 3db drop, which is half the perceived volume, so FrontCentre/dialogue total volume preserved
some folks mix the LFE into the FL/FR mix with a 0.5 coefficient, which gives 1/4 of the original perceived lfe volume

 

[Ste]

Options that spring to mind for a stereo solution are:
1. Use a PC or similar as a source, and run room EQ software on it
2. Downmix to stereo from say a BD player, output via Optical SPDIF to the DEQ2496, then onto a stereo amp
3. Buy a legacy top end AV amp from say Yamaha or Denon. As they don't have the latest gizmos, they're usually a bargain. I've seen units originally costing £2k available for a tenth of that now. Some will include room correction.

Clearly there are other options, but most of them are substantially more expensive, e.g. a mini-dsp box (runs DIRAC), or AV processor with room correction built in (e.g. Meridian G68).

This. I have a pioneer amp that was 2,500 quid 6 years ago. It is still 7.1, DTSMA etc. and full room correction including standing waves etc., paid 200 quid from AVForums 18 months ago. It is a great amp with loads of power. I have Dali Ikon 6 fronts and matching centre and also agree with the comment about subwoofers. I thought sending LFE to front was a good answer until I got a ported 12”.

Whilst I was on the lookout for a bargain amp I used an audiolab MDAC and 2x 8000MX monos with my projector and the Dalis. I thought it was good but didn’t realise how awful the room was until the AVR sorted it out. The balance between front and rear once calibrated is so precise too that the room just fills effortlessly with sound.

All of that said the pioneer is no where near as good as the dedicated pre/mono setup for music. I now have the audiolab kit in the lounge with a small pair of Dali mentor menuet speakers for best or both worlds.

Edit - pioneer SC-LX83. 2k not 2.5k. Best 200 quid I ever spent

 

[hornetstinger]

[QUOTE="Ste, post: 31149505, member: 1315" and also agree with the comment about subwoofers. I thought sending LFE to front was a good answer until I got a ported 12”.
[/QUOTE]

yup not the same at all. Floorstanders will come with music fine but once you put on a action movie- forget it. It's all distortion. Even my floorstanders 36hz don't go as low as a sub. My speakers have 3 x 8" plus 1 x 6.5. Yours has 2 x 6.5"

Biggest output sub I had was a SVS PC Ultra 13, that was a monster. 13.5", ported to 20hz, 1000W amp.