Does anyone still think the housing market isn't broken?

Woden · 14 Oct 2017 at 16:56

billysielu said:
Of course, but don't you think that's odd? You're told to work hard, get educated, get the best job you can, then punished for it, and told you can't complain?

I could start a business on the side, or do a second job in the evening. But it just doesn't seem worth it. Choking the economy.

Educated with taxes

LabR@t · 14 Oct 2017 at 17:00

Vonhelmet said:
What sort of godawful regressive society are you hoping for?

are you a liitle cake eater?

Randomface74 · 14 Oct 2017 at 17:01

Woden said:
Educated with taxes

Fair point - although I was mostly talking about university, because that's usually what you need for the top jobs.
Also doesn't account for private education. It tends to be the richer people who pay the taxes who don't actually use public education.
As much as I don't want to give people another reason to have a go at me, taxes didn't pay for my education. People leave money in their wills to my school for scholarships so bright people can go there who otherwise couldn't afford it. I realise that's not normal at all and very lucky.

teaboy5 · 14 Oct 2017 at 17:06

Vonhelmet said:
Get over it. You're only taxed at 40% on your earnings above 45k, you'll manage.

If you're paying £22k in tax (and NI?) you must be earning about £70k, right?

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs clearly doesn't grab you.

More like 80k. Only on OCUK does someone earning that moan about the cost of things while having nearly 5k a month to spend.

You pay more tax than the average person, get over it!

Randomface74 · 14 Oct 2017 at 17:27

So to illustrate my point. Then I'm going to leave it here because it's getting annoying.

The price of a 3 bed semi here is £340k.
The income required to fall into the higher rate of income tax is £45k.
The minimum deposit, to avoid using help to buy is 10% - so you'd need to save £34k. This is about what my deposit was, I saved it by living in the cheapest (and nastiest) available bedsit for 5 years.
That would leave £306k to get a mortgage for.
So you need a 6.8x earnings mortgage. This doesn't exist, you can only borrow about 4x.
So this person cannot buy this house.

You really think it's moral to take 12% NI and 40% Income Tax from this person?

Randomface74 · 14 Oct 2017 at 17:41

Moses said:
As a marginal rate, yes. Do you understand marginal rates? Some of what you’ve said suggests not. What’s your fairer idea? I assume any system where you pay less and others pay more?

Yes I understand marginal rates.
I proposed a fairer system - the single rate of income tax. If everyone pays the same rate then the more you earn the more you pay. As opposed to the current system which is the more you earn the more you're punished for it.

Vonhelmet · 14 Oct 2017 at 17:46

billysielu said:
So to illustrate my point. Then I'm going to leave it here because it's getting annoying.

The price of a 3 bed semi here is £340k.
The income required to fall into the higher rate of income tax is £45k.
The minimum deposit, to avoid using help to buy is 10% - so you'd need to save £34k. This is about what my deposit was, I saved it by living in the cheapest (and nastiest) available bedsit for 5 years.
That would leave £306k to get a mortgage for.
So you need a 6.8x earnings mortgage. This doesn't exist, you can only borrow about 4x.
So this person cannot buy this house.

You really think it's moral to take 12% NI and 40% Income Tax from this person?

Firstly, at that level you pay nic at 2%. Secondly, the thread is about people who can't afford any houses full stop and you're whinging that you can afford a house most people can't even dream of... get over yourself.

Vonhelmet · 14 Oct 2017 at 17:47

LabR@t said:
are you a liitle cake eater?

What on earth are you talking about?

LabR@t · 14 Oct 2017 at 17:56

Vonhelmet said:
What on earth are you talking about?

I don't know.

Raymond Lin · 14 Oct 2017 at 18:00

Vonhelmet said:
Firstly, at that level you pay nic at 2%. Secondly, the thread is about people who can't afford any houses full stop and you're whinging that you can afford a house most people can't even dream of... get over yourself.

There's too much caviar on my cracker, my wallet is too small for my £50s, my Range Rover uses too much petrol, and my kids education at Eton is costing too much!

LiE · 14 Oct 2017 at 18:16

I was on the housing ladder at 22 in 2007 using the first time buyer initiative. Our combined income was about £30k. It was doable and there are still schemes to get a foot on the ladder.

I’m in my 2nd home now. Equity is about £120k, house value is about ££280k. However we now have a combined income of £65k.

Woden · 14 Oct 2017 at 18:27

billysielu said:
So to illustrate my point. Then I'm going to leave it here because it's getting annoying.

The price of a 3 bed semi here is £340k.
The income required to fall into the higher rate of income tax is £45k.
The minimum deposit, to avoid using help to buy is 10% - so you'd need to save £34k. This is about what my deposit was, I saved it by living in the cheapest (and nastiest) available bedsit for 5 years.
That would leave £306k to get a mortgage for.
So you need a 6.8x earnings mortgage. This doesn't exist, you can only borrow about 4x.
So this person cannot buy this house.

You really think it's moral to take 12% NI and 40% Income Tax from this person?

Now run the same numbers for people on lower income. Round here that would be about £1500 wage, for a house £90k.

Randomface74 · 14 Oct 2017 at 18:35

Vonhelmet said:
Firstly, at that level you pay nic at 2%.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Randomface74 · 14 Oct 2017 at 18:37

Moses said:
"The more you earn the more the system takes into account how a tax on a poorer person is more of a burden than a tax on a richer person" - why’s your conception of fairness the better one?

- A punitive system can never be called fair.
- A fair system should encourage extra work, whether your income is 10k or 100k.

Vonhelmet · 14 Oct 2017 at 18:49

billysielu said:
- A punitive system can never be called fair.
- A fair system should encourage extra work, whether your income is 10k or 100k.

So is 42% tax just too much to make work worthwhile, but 32% at the basic level is fine?

Sasahara · 14 Oct 2017 at 18:50

billysielu said:
- A punitive system can never be called fair.
- A fair system should encourage extra work, whether your income is 10k or 100k.

You do realise that most higher earners acquire their earning from the labour of lower earners. There are very few rich people that can claim their earning are solely achieved by their own labour.
So you need to support low earners or you won't be able to be a high earner.

Woden · 14 Oct 2017 at 18:54

Sasahara said:
You do realise that most higher earners acquire their earning from the labour of lower earners. There are very few rich people that can claim their earning are solely achieved by their own labour.
So you need to support low earners or you won't be able to be a high earner.

Sshhhh!
Just wait 'til he is 80, needs help from nurses and complains they don't pay enough tax.

RoboCod · 14 Oct 2017 at 19:44

Whinging that ones income tax is +£22k!

Deary me

Greebo · 14 Oct 2017 at 20:57

Its broken. My house is worth 5 times more than what we bought it for 18 years ago and we have two years left on the mortgage. Looking at it now, despite me and my partner both in the top 5% wages in the Uk, I doubt we could afford (well we could be we wouldn't have a life and it would be a lot more than one of our wages) to buy our house today with the mortgage being 5 times what it is now and then factor in potential rate increases. Its madness.

|Just for comparison our mortgage was 22% of our joint earnings when we bought and is now only 10%. If we bought our house tomorrow it would be 53%.

ci_newman · 15 Oct 2017 at 07:28

Our mortgage payments make up around 33% of our household income. Childcare fees make up another 33%