Anyone Voting in the Catalan Referendum?

[Jokester]

There’s absolutely no will in the Spanish government to even start to discuss anything let alone changing the law to allow a formal independence to happen.

It will come down to how far the Catalan’s will take things in terms of civil disobedience.

 

[Raymond Lin]

I believe that has already been tried and got them no where.



of course it isn't legal, again they don't have a legal route... ergo there isn't much choice left



not intentionally, maybe you edited your post after I'd pressed the quote button to start my reply?

I don't see it as being relevant, if anything the idea that they're somehow duty bound to never be able to exercise self determination because of something signed a couple of generations ago is rather dubious.

Then they need to try harder, as I said, the constitution is not set in stone, it can be changed.

If they have as much leverage as they claim they have, use it, they are smart people, do it the smart way, not the way that they know the court will just declare it illegal, and even after it was declared illegal, still go ahead and declare it….clearly not that smart.

Look, I respect their desire for sovereignty, that's fine. I even sympathise their plight in not having the freedom to do what "their people" or region wants, I understand. I do, coming from Hong Kong, and I want nothing more than have the region to be independent from China….you think Hong Kong can just declare independence? You think the world will just accept and recognise it? You think China will stand by and let it be?

Really?

Sometimes you just have to live in the real world and face facts and reality.

 

[dowie]

Then they need to try harder, as I said, the constitution is not set in stone, it can be changed.

they have tried harder, they tried that route, it didn't work, they then organised their own referendum and have made this declaration. You're talking as though this has all failed, it might do, but it is still ongoing at the moment, we don't know the result yet.

Sometimes you just have to live in the real world and face facts and reality.

well the fact is this isn't China, it is a democratic European state, the game is a bit different, the Spanish can't just come in and crush them quite in the same way or make the leaders disappear and if there was anything getting close to a civil war then I'd suspect you'd quickly see third parties wanting to mediate... in which case the possibility of a 'legal' referendum could be there

that would be the ideal move IMO, third party mediators and Spain having to concede to a legal referendum

 

[Zethor]

What do you mean by suddenly? This hasn’t just appeared overnight.

The court ‘merely’ applies the law, though... which doesn’t magically appear independent of the legislature and executive. It’s like saying when men were punished by our courts for being homosexual that it wasn’t the fault of Parliament. Well, it was, because they chose, in their wisdom, to create the law in the first place and then to not repeal it for yonks.

Equality for homosexuals was achieved by changing the laws. If the people in Catalonia can't get enough support for a change in Spain's Constitution, tough luck. I too would like all taxes slashed by 50% in my city and I'm sure I could find millions who would like to same but I don't live in a tribal society that functions though rule of the mob, I live in a modern democracy that functions through the rule of the law.

 

[Raymond Lin]

they have tried harder, they tried that route, it didn't work, they then organised their own referendum and have made this declaration. You're talking as though this has all failed, it might do, but it is still ongoing at the moment, we don't know the result yet.

well the fact is this isn't China, it is a democratic European state, the game is a bit different, the Spanish can't just come in and crush them quite in the same way or make the leaders disappear and if there was anything getting close to a civil war then I'd suspect you'd quickly see third parties wanting to mediate

No, it is exactly the same.

Spain rule Catalan.
China rule Hong Kong.

The facts and reality is Catalan is rule by Spain, they lost the civil war. suck it up, really, just suck it up. Move away to France if they want but honestly, is life that bad under Spanish rule? What really changed? Do these people just want the name change? is it really that important? is this all worth it? It's hardly like getting ruled under Stalin is it.

The Spanish police will just come in and crush them, within the framework of their law, EU law. Of course I doubt there will be tanks and army, and i expect there will be protests which they fully entitled to, but the moment there are violence or property damage, then it's riot police time I expect.

 

[Zethor]

One would hope that Spain isn’t on a level with China in terms of respecting human rights, including the right to self-determination.

I love a bit of whataboutism in the evening!

You know you lost the debate when you compare an advanced democracy like Spain to an authoritarian kleptocracy like China.

 

[Raymond Lin]

I love a bit of whataboutism in the evening!

You know you lost the debate when you compare an advanced democracy like Spain to an authoritarian kleptocracy like China.

Both countries' own law controls their respective region. Both regions (Catalan and Hong Kong) are within their own respective legal framework and both are unable to break away legally. I mean even the UK signed up to giving up Hong Kong after the end of the period of the Treaty was over. Grown men honours the treaties they signed, or their previous generations, or severel generations ago signed.

I don't remember the UK Parliament saying "I never signed the treaty that gives Hong Kong back, I wasn't alive when that was signed!"

 

[dowie]

No, it is exactly the same.

Spain rule Catalan.
China rule Hong Kong.

It isn't exactly the same at all... China is rather different to Spain ergo the same approach would likely generate a very different response!

I love a bit of whataboutism in the evening!

You know you lost the debate when you compare an advanced democracy like Spain to an authoritarian kleptocracy like China.

eh? Moses clearly hasn't done that, quite the opposite really having dismissed the comparison!

 

[chrismscotland]

Elections called for December 21st and Rajoy has sacked the Catalan Government

 

[Zethor]

eh? Moses clearly hasn't done that, quite the opposite really having dismissed the comparison!

I declare personal independence and refuse to pay further taxes! It's my human right! Or is it ridiculous like the farce the Catalan politicians are pulling?

 

[lude1962]

'The facts and reality is Catalan is rule by Spain, they lost the civil war. suck it up, really, just suck it up.'
apartheid, slavery both legal at some stage, 'suck it up, really, just suck it up'
'then it's riot police time I expect' and when that doesn't work next logical step army and tanks ', Tiananmen Square anyone...

 

[Zethor]

'The facts and reality is Catalan is rule by Spain, they lost the civil war. suck it up, really, just suck it up.'
apartheid, slavery both legal at some stage, 'suck it up, really, just suck it up'
'then it's riot police time I expect' and when that doesn't work next logical step army and tanks ', Tiananmen Square anyone...

Your opinion is uninformed and it's not even yours as you seem to have copied it from somewhere. I wonder where.

 

[dowie]

I declare personal independence and refuse to pay further taxes! It's my human right! Or is it ridiculous like the farce the Catalan politicians are pulling?

Weren't you just criticising someone else for some perceived whataboutery?

You've already mentioned the personal independence thing, it was replied to and then rather than try to engage in any further discussion regarding it you just bring it up again. Are you really not able to see a distinction between an individual doing this and an autonomous region with their own language, culture etc..?

 

[lude1962]

Your opinion is uninformed and it's not even yours as you seem to have copied it from somewhere. I wonder where.

I was actually quoting and replying to a previous post.

pay attention

 

[Zethor]

Weren't you just criticising someone else for some perceived whataboutery?

You've already mentioned the personal independence thing, it was replied to and then rather than try to engage in any further discussion regarding it you just bring it up again. Are you really not able to see a distinction between an individual doing this and an autonomous region with their own language, culture etc..?

Dowie, whataboutism involves an "What about", IE "What about China doing this n that?". What I did was an exaggerated comparison, a hyperbole which is not meant to be taken literally.

 

[Zethor]

I was actually quoting and replying to a previous post.

pay attention

You may want to use the "quote" function and your argument is still ridiculous.

 

[dowie]

Dowie, whataboutism involves an "What about", IE "What about China doing this n that?". What I did was an exaggerated comparison, a hyperbole which is not meant to be taken literally.

why not present a view/opinion?

What relevance does throwing in this bloke in a house declaring independence have here?

 

[Stretch]

It's mass delusion on the part of the catalonian separatists. They may as well of proclaimed themselves unicorns.

 

[Zethor]

Dare I say the obvious next step there is to ask at what point this tyranny of the majority is unacceptable? Was it fine when 50.0000000001% of people thought being gay was wrong for us to lock them up/chemically castrate them/etc? Would it be okay for the rest of Spain to be taxed at a certain amount, then for Catalunya to be taxed at a significantly higher, punitive rate? Would it be okay for say a constitution to block independence referendums if two thirds of the legislature wanted reform, but third didn't and a special majority of 70% was needed for amendments? Was it fine for us to treat the Irish as we did throughout history? If a majority wanted internment camps for Muslims, would that be fine?

You are the proponent of the tyranny of the majority in this debate, not me. You want the Govt. and the people of Spain to ignore the rule of the law because a majority of the Catalan people want something. This is not how things are done in a modern democracy, which is why no such state will recognise the declaration of independence. Your examples are meaningless, any law that targets people based on their sexuality/religion/ethnicity would be shut down in the courts, even if 99% of the population agreed with it. As for the exact percentage needed to change a constitution, that's debatable and irrelevant.

Clearly different. Eg. look at it in terms of the Montevideo Convention 1933 - part of customary international - which says how a state should have, (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. The Catalans meet those... you don't.

I wasn't in Montevideo at the time, I didn't get a vote on it so I consider that invalid. I have 100% majority so I can do whatever I want.

 

[Iraklis F.C.]

pandora's box just opened for the Iberians