Home Office media kit – spec me/advice please

[oneilldo]

I would appreciate any advice on the following…

I’m shortly (next 1-2months) going to be kitting out a home office/log cabin which will also be used as a gaming/cinema/bar room. Budget nothing is set in stone but I think generally I’ll struggle to justify a big uplift in cost unless warranted. Nothing is ordered yet but I currently have the following stuff that will be going in. TV (Samsung UE65KS8000), XBOX, PS4 and Switch. The TV and consoles are the 4K variants so AVR etc. will need to support this and HDR etc. Everything else down to speaker wire needs purchasing.

It doesn’t need to be massively loud in there and I am trying to keep it decluttered so will be looking to install ceiling speakers. Main room/area will be something like 5.5m by 3.5m, I’m going to store the kit in a partitioned area in a network rack. I’m thinking maybe 4 ceiling speakers? I know Lucid on here recommends the BluCube BCK-65 and they look to be well reviewed so I might go with them.

Usage will be 60% music, 20% Games and 20% TV/Films.

I might have the TV on whilst music is playing so if the TV goes through AVR I need to be able to override audio output of AVR to other sources. I might also want to connect a PC etc. to the AMP/AVR.

In addition as the AVR/AMP is in a separate area ideally I want to be able to control this via WIFI etc, so I can change inputs from the garden etc. Could run an IR extender to the office room to control from there? Or a multi remote?

The TV will be hung on a partitioned wall so I could potentially put in a wall speaker for a centre speaker, the size of TV and requirement for a door means I might struggle to put in side speakers.

I’m going to be running CAT6 to share internet etc. and in addition I want to run speaker wire from the office to a BBQ area in the garden. I’m keen to go down the SONOS route but am happy for both the office and garden to play from the same SONOS. I might get a google home/alexa and a few HUE light strips as well.

My thoughts so far are a SONOS connect and some form of AMP/AVR to switch music between office/garden. I am happy for them both to be supplied by the same SONOS unit but I won’t want the Garden on unless I am in it. So it needs to be able to play in the office, play in the garden or play in both.

So any ideas on kit…

Ceiling speakers – which ones and how many?

Garden speakers for BBQ area – area not that big so 1-2 should be fine.

AVR/AMP

Speaker cable – is it all much the same, I assume I need different for the garden

SONOS Connect

Can you accomplish viable surround sound with 4 speakers?

Thanks for any help.

 

[vila]

You can do a viable surround sound setup with '4' speakers missing out the centre channel - the amp will mix the centre channel audio into the left and right speaker.

However all modern forms of surround sound are designed to be used with a subwoofer for the low frequencies or .1 in 5.1.

You can get discreet subwoofers or even get hidden ones but personally i dont think you can do viable surround sound without a subwoofer and would be better off with a stereo setup with a pair of decent full range speakers.

 

[hornetstinger]

1) A home cinema really needs a center as well, I'd say it's as important as a sub
2) You won't find "full range speakers" unless you spend over £2000. In fact, even then. Full range speaker means 20hz response, you're talking a speaker with a 12" sub in the unit. Even my huge speakers don't go that low, they reach to about 32hz, and they have 3 x 8" drivers!

Personally I wouldn't have the TV on to listen to music, use a phone app or tablet, or buy a media streamer with a front VFD.

Since music is important I'd be looking at some decent floorstanders say £500 or so.

 

[oneilldo]

Thanks for the advice, Not sure if I was clear but
The usage is the actual room usage so whilst that is the majority of usage it will be basically whilst working listening to SONOS which will be from an app on my phone the SONOS connect. This has an optical out so I assume I can just connect this to the optical in on the AVR/AMP. I wouldn't really say it needs to sound really good, its more about sounding better than the TV's in built speakers and coping with requirements for accessibility/switching between garden and office for speakers etc.

I only use a SONOS one in the house so far and as long as it sounds a bit better than that its fine. I could put a centre in the wall.
Whilst I appreciate floor standers would sound better I am keen to keep the room as empty/minimalist as possible (will have PC monitors on wall and narrow desks etc.)

Thankss

 

[vila]

Thanks for the advice, Not sure if I was clear but
The usage is the actual room usage so whilst that is the majority of usage it will be basically whilst working listening to SONOS which will be from an app on my phone the SONOS connect. This has an optical out so I assume I can just connect this to the optical in on the AVR/AMP. I wouldn't really say it needs to sound really good, its more about sounding better than the TV's in built speakers and coping with requirements for accessibility/switching between garden and office for speakers etc.

I only use a SONOS one in the house so far and as long as it sounds a bit better than that its fine. I could put a centre in the wall.
Whilst I appreciate floor standers would sound better I am keen to keep the room as empty/minimalist as possible (will have PC monitors on wall and narrow desks etc.)

Thankss

The sonos side of things will ‘work’ so to speak in pretty much any setup.

Principally Sonos is for music will run happily enough on any type of stereo setup. ( It’ll even run in Mono )

It’s just for a surround sound setup from films / tv / games where you’d want a subwoofer.

Wasn’t suggesting you need floorstanders - surround sound sound is designed for sub sat speakers anyhow not floorstanders.

But if you were happy with a stereo setup you could look at a decent pair of in wall speakers or a decent set of bookshelf speakers high up on wall mounts.

 

[hornetstinger]

It’s just for a surround sound setup from films / tv / games where you’d want a subwoofer.

Depends. If you have speakers that aren't full range, you want a subwoofer. Even if you have standmounts, you'd want a subwoofer. For music and movies, and especially movies.

surround sound sound is designed for sub sat speakers anyhow not floorstanders.

Not really, nothing stopping you using floorstanders in a home theatre, there are some benefits, typically better bass response, higher output, lower distortion, and in pure direct mode, will offer wider frequency response than just the left & right. Plus you can tailor the crossovers to suit.

Also some people don't like subs for music.

 

[lucid]

Doing 2 zones of sound independently is easy if the AVR has a Zone 2 capability. You won't find this on the entry-level 5.1 AVRs, so you're looking at a step-up/mid-range 7.1 receiver. Since Dolby ATMOS / DTS-X are the flavour of the month then you'll probably find that the sales blurb focusses on that, but it's often the case that one pair of channels can be assigned as ATMOS in ceiling / rear channels of 7.1 / Powered Zone 2. When the system is installed the selection of how those channels will be used is made and then from there it's set-up ready to go every time.

Since most decent amps/receivers have some form of Wi-Fi or Ethernet network connectivity and now come with a control app (Android/ iOS) then this is your simplest method of control when outside. If you're not keen on giving your phone to someone else to run the tunes while your BBQ then buy a cheap Android tablet with Wi-Fi. That'll run the app too.

There is one caveat with Zone 2. Unless you're spending serious wedge (ballpark £1000+) on the amp/receiver then it'll only have one digital decoder built in. The decoder is dedicated to the cinema set-up (Zone 1), so any external devices connected to the receiver for Z2 use have to be hooked up with analogue phono cables (the red and the white plugs). That's not an issue for the Sonos Connect player. You can use analogue out from that and it'll feed both Z1 and Z2. Bear it in mind though if you want the sound of the foolball match playing on Freeview from the TV running out to the garden. The solution there is to use HDMI ARC for the cinema zone and use an Optical to analogue audio converter to give a phono out connection from the TVs optical connector.

Watch one, listen to another - again this depends on the level of the amp/receiver, so it should be on a short list of questions when you come to buy, but yes, it's possible a number of different ways. If it's a common thing such as viewing the PC screen (via HDMI) but listening to Sonos for example, then you can set up something permanently via the input assignment feature so that the sound from one source marries with the picture from another. That becomes the default configuration. Quite a few amps will allow you to flip between the digital audio input and the analogue sockets at the physical connection, so that gives a way of getting two audio sources for one vision input. Then there are the certain inputs that allow an alternative video signal to be used temporarily.

Yamaha used to call this Background Video, but now it comes under the name Video Out. On Denons it was/is called Video Select. Once again, do check before you commit to buy because features like this are rarely used. There's always a chance that they'll be dropped from the lower-end models in favour of some more attention-grabbing feature.


Edit: I forgot to mention, from a power On/Off and source selection and volume perspective, the Zone 2 features of an AV receiver/AV amp work entirely independently of the main zone. It's exactly like having two amplifiers, except they're both in the same box.

What isn't independent is what the sources are doing. For example, if you're listening to Net Radio in Zone 1 then you'll hear the same channel choice in Z2. Likewise it doesn't make the Sonos Connect play more than one stream at the same time. Bear this in mind if both zones are likely to be running at the same time but operated by different people. If I'm listening to Sonos by the BBQ and someone in the office switches to the player and changes the music then that will be reflected in what you hear outside too.

Speakers for cinema & music - normal in-ceiling speakers work okay for surrounds at the rear of the room, but for the front channel L&R they're less successful unless specifically designed to fire the sound forward rather than straight down. That doesn't stop people using them all round, but if you have the option to fit some small satellite speakers with a sub for front L&R duty along with a tonally-matching centre speaker then the whole system will be more effective.

The alternatives for the front channels are either in-wall speaker or dedicated in-ceiling cinema speakers.

In-walls can be successful if planned properly. The depth has to be accounted for and the wall construction should be beefed up to avoid hollow vibration as the speaker puts energy in to the structure. In-ceilings for cinema us differ in that either the whole speaker or the tweeter is canted at an angle to throw the sound forward rather than straight down. The angle is more than you'd get with the +/-15 degree tilt of a typical mid-range in-ceiling. Have a look at B&WCM662, but I warn you, they're not cheap @ £700/pr. For that you could buy the Monitor Audio Mass 5.1 system and have £200 change in your pocket - that's all five on-wall speakers plus a sub.


Outdoor speakers - I really like the Bose 251 speakers. Audio fidelity isn't the paramount issue outside. It's being heard and having some bass. Bose ticks both of those boxes with this product. If you can get them mounted on a wall so they have something to bounce off as a bass boost then they work extremely well. I've used 151s as well and they're not a patch on the 251s. Oh, and you're going to go stereo. Messing around trying to make the stereo output of the Z2 speaker connections go to mono just to save a few quid on a single speaker is a false economy. If the budget is getting a bit stretched then pre-wire for the outdoor speakers and then get a tuffbox or wire up an outdoor IP66-rated double socket and an Ethernet socket and bring the Play One outside for the time being. (Sonos really are missing a trick with not having an outdoor speaker).

 

[oneilldo]

Hi All,

Thanks for the advice all.
Lucid - You are right it does seem mad that SONOS don't do an outside version of the sonos one I am sure that they would sell loads. I'll look into the 251's foru outdoors. In terms of mounting I think it will be a large fence/frame post as no solid walls are in that area of the garden.
I'm happy for both the cabin and the garden to be streaming the same source. With the separate zones it sounds like I could control the volume independently via the AVR app.
I just didn't want someone to increase the volumne a bit outside via the sonos app and then for it too be far too loud in the cabin.
The TV has one HDMI ARC connection so hopefully that should be an option. Ideally want to use ceiling speakers rather than in walls as I want to keep the dividing wall as narrow as possible - not sure if you could beef up a 100-120mm dividing wall. If I can it might be an option. However saying that some small front satellites might be an option. I intended to have a narrow furniture unit below the TV and could potentially hide a SUB elsewhere. hmm. Then stick with ceiling speakers for the rears. What small satellites would you recommend for TV/Games and music?

Think next steps is a bit more reading then I might go and have a chat at Richersounds or equivalent to get some ideas of AVR's etc.

 

[lucid]

1) I'm happy for both the cabin and the garden to be streaming the same source. With the separate zones it sounds like I could control the volume independently via the AVR app.

2) I just didn't want someone to increase the volumne a bit outside via the sonos app and then for it too be far too loud in the cabin

3) The TV has one HDMI ARC connection so hopefully that should be an option.

4) Ideally want to use ceiling speakers rather than in walls as I want to keep the dividing wall as narrow as possible - not sure if you could beef up a 100-120mm dividing wall. If I can it might be an option. However saying that some small front satellites might be an option. I intended to have a narrow furniture unit below the TV and could potentially hide a SUB elsewhere. hmm. Then stick with ceiling speakers for the rears. What small satellites would you recommend for TV/Games and music?

I've separated out the questions you've asked.

1) Yes, that's exactly how the amps with Z2 feature work. It's as I said before; exactly like having two amplifiers - both operating independently of each other.

2) Sonos Connect has a feature that you don't find on the Play speakers. The Connect can be set to FIXED volume output instead of variable. You haven't seen this yet because it doesn't apply to the speaker products.

What it means is that the Sonos control App no longer operates the volume; so, just like plugging in a CD player / BD player / games console in to the amplifier, the Connect becomes just another Line Level audio source. You do any volume control from the amplifier. The rest of the Sonos features are exactly as before though; nothing else changes. The Connect still appears in the Sonos App and you do music selects etc just as before. All that's missing is the volume control because the amplifier now does this.

What switching to Fixed Line Out means is that no-one can change the volume with the Sonos App and blast you out in a different zone.

It's possible to switch back to Variable Level in the Sonos App should you need to. It's just a simple toggle selection in the Settings menu.

This, combined with point #1, answers your concern about the volume being too loud in the cabin. It can only be too loud if someone turns up the Zone 1 volume in the cabin.

3) I would have thought so. ARC is a pretty common feature on the sort of level of AV receiver/AV amp that also has Z2.

4) Since your use is mostly music (60% I think you wrote) then any speakers you choose have to be up to that job. However, you want to do movies as well, so that requires front speakers that can project the sound forward. Yes, you can use in-ceilings, but they have to be good enough for music and project forward. Getting both those attributes in a ceiling speaker design is possible, but at a cost. The question is whether you are prepared to spend £700 on ONE pair of in-ceiling speakers for front L&R to achieve your goal, or go with all in-ceilings and compromise the performance for the remaining 40% of the time.

As I see it, there's a 3rd option. Your comment about using a slim unit beneath the TV makes it even more viable than when I wrote it in post #7.

Small but high-quality front and centre speakers combined with a subwoofer will tick the boxes for the requirements of music and movies. They'll also fit in the space you have to play with. The Monitor Audio Mass system will do that. 5x surrounds and the sub is £500. You won't use the two rear speakers; only the front three and the sub. The rears will be conventional in-ceilings which is fine because they'll be sitting very close to overhead so there isn't the same directionality issue as there is for the fronts. Do you see?

The Mass satellites are approx 5" x 5" x 9". Add the depth of a wall bracket (1.5"-2") and you've still got something relatively small.



Budget-wise the Mass solution + conventional in-ceiling rears would work out cheaper too

Mass @ £500 + BCK65 in-ceiling rears @ £295/pr = £800

versus B&W CM664 @ £700/pr + a centre speaker @ est £200-£300 + BCK65 in-ceilings as rears @ £295 + sub @ £250-£375 = £1450-£1675

versus 2x pair of BCK65 (£600) + centre speaker @ est £200-£300 + sub @ £250-£375 = £1050-£1275



Right now there's a full set of Mass speakers with the sub ona buy-it-now @ £299 on Ebay.

 

[oneilldo]

Thanks Lucid. I think the Mass 5.1's and then two rear BCK65 seems the best.
Just to confirm if I get an AVR with 2 zones I could have a movie on using HDMI ARC for 5.1 surround sound in the cabin and also have sonos playing in the garden at the same time?

 

[hornetstinger]

Thanks Lucid. I think the Mass 5.1's and then two rear BCK65 seems the best.
Just to confirm if I get an AVR with 2 zones I could have a movie on using HDMI ARC for 5.1 surround sound in the cabin and also have sonos playing in the garden at the same time?

Not necassarily, zone 2 could just replicate zone 1 signal. Not sure which AVR allows seperate record/listen, like my old integrated amplifier.

 

[lucid]

Thanks Lucid. I think the Mass 5.1's and then two rear BCK65 seems the best.
Just to confirm if I get an AVR with 2 zones I could have a movie on using HDMI ARC for 5.1 surround sound in the cabin and also have sonos playing in the garden at the same time?

Yes, it can do that.

 

[lucid]

Not necassarily, zone 2 could just replicate zone 1 signal. Not sure which AVR allows seperate record/listen, like my old integrated amplifier.

Your knowledge is a bit out of date.

Record/Listen is still a feature of some Hi-Fi amps as a throwback to Reel-to-Reel/cassette/DAT/MD/CD recorders etc. As far as AV receivers re concerned it's pretty-much a dead feature.

None of the main-brand Japanese AV receiver makers include a stereo phono Rec Out connection on their top-end AV receivers any longer. There isn't enough call for it, so it has been dropped. You'll probably find that Digital Audio Out has largely been dropped too. You may find Rec Listen on some of the specialist brands, but as far as mainstream AV Receiver product is concerned it's a Dodo..... R I P.

However, as far as @oneilldo is concerned this is not an issue and it never was. Record/Listen would have been the wrong way to go about feeding Zone 2. This is because it would have relied on the Zone 1 part of the amp being awake in order to manage the signal routing. Zone 2 Out is a simpler and more-convenient way of achieving the same goal of sound in a secondary area.

Using Z2 means there's no risk that sending sound to the BBQ speakers will suddenly switch on the main zone amp too and blast out whoever is near. It won't, or it won't unless the user presses the extra buttons to switch on Z1 at the same time. The power for Z2 is separate and independent of Z1. This means Z2 can be switched on, then change sources, alter the volume, mute on/off, change source infinite times, and then power off without ever waking up the Zone 1 portion of the amp.

Likewise, Z1 can be switch on, change sources, do volume/mute and all the AV processing functions without ever waking Z2.

Finally, both zones can be woken and operated together (Party Mode) with the only limitation being that Zone 2 can play just analogue sources.

 

[hornetstinger]

I don't have much experience with Zone 2, last time I used it, it just replicated what was being outputted to the main zone. You couldn't listen to a CD on main zone, and output audio from a BD player to Zone 2.

Personally when I want another "zone" I simply build up another system, as I don't see the point of adjusting Zone 2 if I have to go back into the first room to alter the volume.

 

[oneilldo]

Thanks both, Looks like I am set. Z1 will be cabin using HDMI ARC and Z2 will be BBQ. Ideally SONOS will be optical if this works for both.
Now just to decide on a suitable AVR and speaker wire.

 

[lucid]

I don't have much experience with Zone 2, last time I used it, it just replicated what was being outputted to the main zone. You couldn't listen to a CD on main zone, and output audio from a BD player to Zone 2.

You still can't listen to the BD player in Z2 unless it has an analogue connection - the red and the white phono plugs - connected to the amp as well as a digital connection.

Anything digitally connected - so via HDMI, or Optical, or Coax digital - can be played in Zone 1 ONLY. So if all you have on the back panel of the amp is connections by HDMI or Optical or Coax then Zone 2 on its own ain't gonna play those sources. Can't say it any simpler than that. You have to have analogue connections as well if you want Z2 to work on its own.

You can do it the other way around - BD in Z1, and analogue from CD in Z2 both playing at the same time. That's fine, that works. It's an analogue connection, you see?

Whatever you were doing with Zone 2 wasn't the way that independent Zone 2 works from an AV amp/receiver.

Personally when I want another "zone" I simply build up another system, as I don't see the point of adjusting Zone 2 if I have to go back into the first room to alter the volume.

That's because you haven't run a proper multizone system. You're still thinking old skool.

True multizone/multiroom systems allow the control of volume from anywhere in the living space. The remote control talks to the entire network. You could be in the garden by the BBQ and remember that you left the speakers on in the garage and turn them off without moving from your chair. There's no "getting up and going to another room". It's the 21st Century. You need to bone up on what we're doing (and have been doing) for the past 20+ years in multi-room

________________________________________________________________________________

@oneilldo : Your Sonos Connect. Look at the web page and see the connections on the back. There's Optical, there's digital coax and there's analogue. If you want to hook up Optical then that's fine, but the sound from Optical ain't gonna make it to Z2 when you're running the BBQ speakers only. You have to hook up the red and white phone sockets AS WELL. Please, for the love of God, tell me this is sinking in now because it's starting to get really bloody boring having to repeat this over and over again... lol Tell me you get it.

 

[hornetstinger]

You still can't listen to the BD player in Z2 unless it has an analogue connection - the red and the white phono plugs - connected to the amp as well as a digital connection.

That's why Zone 2 seemed stupid, you need to have analogue and digital connections to the AVR to get audio out?

Pretty sure some of the higher end AVR's do allow you to this, seperate DAC to the zone 2 outputs, but not prepared to pay for it.

Not really a problem as other rooms have audio streamers, with own amplifiers.

And really you want zone 2 to receive digital connection, RCA out or speaker level over long distance? Can't be good, especially with RCA cables.

 

[lucid]

That's why Zone 2 seemed stupid, you need to have analogue and digital connections to the AVR to get audio out?

Pretty sure some of the higher end AVR's do allow you to this, seperate DAC to the zone 2 outputs, but not prepared to pay for it.

Not really a problem as other rooms have audio streamers, with own amplifiers.

And really you want zone 2 to receive digital connection, RCA out or speaker level over long distance? Can't be good, especially with RCA cables.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Just because you don't see the value in something doesn't mean that it's "stupid". All it means is that it doesn't appeal to you. That's hardly the same thing.


Anyway, analogue connections are required because the Z2 pre-amp is analogue only. It's as simple as that. Yes, some of the high-end AV receivers are fitted with dual DACs. However, you have to remember that for the average AV amp the DAC is dealing with a whole variety of CODECs, not to mention multichannel as well. Plus, stereo amps don't have multi-zone, and they don't have multiple DACs either. They have Speakers A+B, and a single DAC too. Even then it's not the same thing; not even remotely close.


There are a variety of solutions for multi-zone. The AV amp with it's multi-zone capability is really designed to cater for adjacent areas, so the dining room or kitchen off the lounge, or the garden area. The cable runs aren't going to be massive in most cases because our average house sizes are in the region of 100~150m^2 floor area. However, you're trying to make the point that cable losses are going to be a big problem, so let's deal with that:

1dB is about the threshold that most people can just about detect a change in volume. So lets say I have to run 100m of speaker cable. If I use 4mm then I'm under the 1dB limit. No-one would be able to tell reliably if the power amp was next door or at the other side of the house.

Next, you tried to make the point that it would be a problem with phono cable. Maybe with the wrong cable that's the case, but a bad cable can wreck audio over just 3ft, that's a problem with cable choice rather than distance. I've got cable I can terminate in with phonos that loses 2.1dB at 1,000,0000Hz over 100m. Even if I take the worst case scenario of a straight line rather than a Logarithmic curve, then the cable loses 1dB @ 500,000Hz, and 0.5dB at 250,000Hz. That's a quarter of a million Hertz. Yeah, I don't think I need to be too worried about the losses at 20,000Hz, thanks.


The way you describe your own multi-room, and the fact that you don't understand centralised control, makes it sound like a hotch-potch of Hi-Fi gear with some standalone bits of streaming gear cobbled on as sources. Just the fact that you think everyone with proper multi-room still needs to go from room to room to change volume. Eek!

 

[hornetstinger]

"Just because you don't see the value in something doesn't mean that it's "stupid".

It doesn't function as required. You're right, it's not stupid. It's really stupid. I considered sending audio from my AVR into another device (headphone amp) but due to lack of analogue outputs on sources, it wouldn't function. Who sends analogue AND digital to a AVR? It doesn't make sense. Analogue is being phased out in favour of HDMI. In the past with optical/coaxial, and S-Video/Component, you still had analogue outputs. Many sources now lack analogue out- so you're stuffed. Consoles? And TV boxes, media streamers, sat boxes, even TV's.

Also with analogue, it will convert it to digital, process it, then convert it back to analogue. That's bad. And you're relying on usually low quality analogue section of that device.

Plus, stereo amps don't have multi-zone,

Not quite. If they have pre-outs, or two sets of pre-outs, or selectable A + B speaker outputs, that can be used as "multi-zone" Or if you use a tape loop, that would allow you to have seperate record (tape out to other room) and listen (main room)

What about noise pickup over long RCA cables?

I do understand centrilised control, I'm aware of touch screen Creston etc, controlling a AV from a tablet etc. It's different now then how it was, but it's not perfect either. Back then it was expensive to get proper full control multi-room, you'd need a dedicated amplifier. It was cheaper and you could do more, and better flexibility with seperate systems.

And no it's not hodge podged gear. It works very well, and they are totally seperate. The two streamers are the same, just the two audio systems are different.

Please stop with the patronising attitude, as you still don't understand bass management yourself.

 

[lucid]

It doesn't function as required. You're right, it's not stupid. It's really stupid. I considered sending audio from my AVR into another device (headphone amp) but due to lack of analogue outputs on sources, it wouldn't function. Who sends analogue AND digital to a AVR? It doesn't make sense. Analogue is being phased out in favour of HDMI. In the past with optical/coaxial, and S-Video/Component, you still had analogue outputs. Many sources now lack analogue out- so you're stuffed. Consoles? And TV boxes, media streamers, sat boxes, even TV's.

Look, you've made your point clear. You can't see past the gear that you own and how you would do it. I get it. Fine. I don't think you mean to be so negative, but that's the way it's coming across.

If you can't bring yourself to add anything constructive, then why not just leave the business of getting stuff done to the people who listen to- and help- folk actually do want they want to do? Perhaps spend some time working with real world mid-market AV gear - you know, the stuff that folk here are asking about and likely to buy - then you'd know that this is how it is and you'd be more reasonable.

Not quite. If they have pre-outs, or two sets of pre-outs, or selectable A + B speaker outputs, that can be used as "multi-zone" Or if you use a tape loop, that would allow you to have seperate record (tape out to other room) and listen (main room)

Sorry, but no.....

Pre-outs require a secondary amp. An AV receiver with Zone 2 does not.

A+B Speaker only allows one source to be played in A/B or A+B. An AV receiver with Zone 2 allows different sources to be played in the two zones at the same time.

Tape Loop requires a secondary amp. An AV receiver with Zone 2 does not.


You should try to at least read some manuals and get to grips with what people are doing in real world situations. Zone 2 has been around for a long time, and people are using it now more than ever because music and audio is increasingly a whole home connected technology.

What about noise pickup over long RCA cables?

With ordinary spiral-wrapped screening that would be a problem. Not with the right double screened cable correctly run to avoid paralleling with EMI sources. If RFI were to become a problem then there's always the fall-back a balun system which uses balanced CAT cable to deal with noise. Real world solutions rather than negativity.

I do understand centrilised control, I'm aware of touch screen Creston etc, controlling a AV from a tablet etc. It's different now then how it was, but it's not perfect either. Back then it was expensive to get proper full control multi-room, you'd need a dedicated amplifier. It was cheaper and you could do more, and better flexibility with seperate systems.

Firstly, I'm not claiming and never had that it's perfect. Please don't try to throw in straw man arguments.

You're aware of one aspect of centralised control. Are you aware that integrated AV amps and AV receivers with multi-room features have been available since 2000-2001 though?

What's changed in the last seven years or so is the proliferation of network connected AV Receivers/Amps and the ability to address them using IP. This, combined with widespread access to iOS and Android phones, makes the sort of two-way control that was only possible with AMX and Crestron-type systems using RS232 or the higher-end Pronto/RTI systems now available to anyone with a smart phone or tablet. The two parts of the jigsaw have come together - multi-zone and app control - and I'm seeing more of my customers asking about using it. This is now a common feature on 7.1 channel AV receivers under £300. It won't overtake the interest in ATMOS / DTS-X, but it's certainly no-longer the Cinderella feature it was in the noughties.

For someone such as oneilldo looking for a simple and effective way to drive a second zone then there's really no longer a requirement for multiple systems. Its arguable that it hasn't been needed for the better part of two decades, but in the last decade the basic AV Receiver has blossomed in to a very comprehensive AV hub device with a lot of useful and very accessible features. We probably have a lot of thanks to give to Sonos for waking people up to the idea that music can be accessible everywhere without spending a fortune.


As for the bass discussion, that was going nowhere helpful to the OP whose needs are much simpler.