GPU prices go boom

[Caracus2k]

Without going back over the thread. Was it you who wished the whole thing would collapse and everyone lose their money?......Because of your HOBBY.

Yes I do hope for that (not really the people losing money but just the collapse bit) .... Why is that a silly or even a bad thing? I'm not that bothered about 'hurting' miners (legally) going about their business but don't want my hobby damaged by their collective actions going forward and so hope for the speedy conclusion of what I beleive is inevitable anyway (the end of mass GPU crypto mining)

You seen to have an increasing capacity to miss the point.... It's not that I necessarily wish for loads of people to lose money... It's that I don't want something I like damaged by what I consider a transitory ponzi scheme

 

[FoxEye]

I agree with you on housing, I was lucky enough to recently get away from renting at the age of 29.

One thing mining does bring is a bit of income to pay for ones rent/mortgage.

I also believe he who dares. People are not getting GPUs for nothing. They are risking their monies to gain some, just like any other lucrative opportunity. Its not greed, its taking a risk.

It can easily be both, but that depends on your situation.

There are miners and there are miners. Not everyone is buying 100s of cards. I'll concede mining doesn't automatically make you greedy. Just annoying. How's that. (oh and you *might* be greedy too )

 

[FoxEye]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Miners set the price of video cards.

Second, you seem to think I am involved in mining., I'm not, I don't mine at all.

I am just commenting on your posts because your arguments are so weak, bad for the environment, greed, people should be happy earning just enough, etc. etc.

Graphics cards are a luxury item. Your posts, and others that are making the same arguments, sound more greedy than miners. Because you just want to buy a cheap GPU for yourself and anything that gets in the way of that is bad.

And refusing to mine because it somehow gives you the moral high ground is laughable. IF it's so easy to make money, why don't you do what other people are doing, buy an expensive card and mine on it until it's paid off.

Because it's already bad for the environment and the more people who do it the worse it will get (it can't have less impact for more electricity used).

If you consider environmental impact to be a bad argument then that's the end of the debate - our viewpoints are diametrically opposed.

Also it really is laughable that a gamer wanting a single card at a reasonable price could in any measurement be more greedy than a miner buying up endless amounts of GPUs. Just not grounded in any kind of logic I'm afraid.

You can talk about unjustified expectations/entitlement, but to insinuate that this expectation is akin to greed is pure nonsense. You really can't be greedy if you seek or enjoy a tiny share compared to others. That's the opposite of greed.

I'm far from alone btw in being dubious about the impact of PoW mining on the environment, however "weak" that is in your opinion. Here's a random site for architects expressing concern...

https://architosh.com/2018/01/the-ethical-conundrum-of-bitcoin-for-sustainable-architects/

There are thousands of articles expressing concern.

 

[Frozennova]

Yes I do hope for that (not really the people losing money but just the collapse bit) .... Why is that a silly or even a bad thing? I'm not that bothered about 'hurting' miners (legally) going about their business but don't want my hobby damaged by their collective actions going forward and so hope for the speedy conclusion of what I beleive is inevitable anyway (the end of mass GPU crypto mining)

You seen to have an increasing capacity to miss the point.... It's not that I necessarily wish for loads of people to lose money... It's that I don't want something I like damaged by what I consider a transitory ponzi scheme

Because that's being greedy and ruining my hobby to make yours cheaper.

 

[Caracus2k]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Miners set the price of video cards.

Again after the manufacturers set their prices the market dictates the cost of a product to consumers....

Miners buying GPU's en mass affect the market on the demand side and in doing so drive up prices!

Its not a hard concept to comprehend

 

[Caracus2k]

Because that's being greedy and ruining my hobby to make yours cheaper.

The mass GPU miners won't stick to their 'hobby' if they don't think they will make money!

Who do you think you fooling? I have a 1080ti and I could leave it mining when I'm not gaming and say its part of a hobby... Buying 1000's of pounds worth of equipment to mine is not a hobby stop trying to claim that it is.

If mining is no longer profitable the mining 'hobbyists' with masses of GPU's won't continue on regardless for the joy of it

 

[mattyg]

You really didnt answer them at all especially the third one (hint it's not to be taken in the strict literal sense as to whether you believe I will actually double your current salary.... it's an example of a scenario similar to what I suggest may be happening with the GPU market...let's say I can double your salary for the current year there is no ifs or maybes about it but the rest remains the same ... Get it now? ) and if you think GPU mining can continue at its current rate or greater for the forseaable future I have a bridge you may be interested in

You also didn't answer the second one I asked about the traditional market not miners... And the non miners are using their older hardware and some are considering leaving PC's behind as an enthusiast pursuit.... You seem to be able to spectacularly miss the point.....

Miners won't be buying GPU's if the payback isn't there and if in selling to miners at inflated prices the traditional market is depleted then it makes sales going forward harder.... Its not a particularly hard concept to grasp now is it?

I also slapped a fourth on although it looks like you replied before I made the edit

As for your salary scenario.. Make hey whilst the sun shines. Nvidia/amd will recover they will diversify and they will create a market for themselves regardless of what you think MAY happen if it crashes. They will also have massive reserves from all the cards you gamers have been buying each year/new revision

How do you think GPU mining can't carry on and grow. Back in the 90's we had very few GPUS now we have lots. What do you think has happened for that to happen.

Some gamers are thinking of leaving PC's behind....Some.. How many, Just so we can tell Nvidia/Amd. All speculation.


Demand has outstripped supply. Do you think NVidia/amd are sat there thinking well we can only produce so many!!!! No they will be looking at increasing production to meet demand...Thats how it works. Now thats a concept that isn't hard to grasp!!

Onto number 4

Really, you really don't think they have the next few revisions already lined up.. They drip feed them to gamers and have done so for years. So you keep buying the next must have card because you really must get 160fps because last years 140fps just wont do.

 

[FoxEye]

Because that's being greedy and ruining my hobby to make yours cheaper.

If you're intent on calling gamers greedy... how about I highlight this crucial difference:

The "greed" of a gamer can be satisfied in the main by a single GPU, even if it's a top-end GPU like a 1080ti.

The "greed" of a miner cannot be satisfied by any amount of GPUs, and skyrocketing prices do little to abate that greed.

In other words, the gamer's greed is very short-lived. The miner's greed lasts forever

 

[FoxEye]

As for your salary scenario.. Make hey whilst the sun shines.

Hey hey hey! (The sun's not shining here atm so I could only make three).

Nvidia/amd will recover they will diversify and they will create a market for themselves regardless of what you think MAY happen if it crashes. They will also have massive reserves from all the cards you gamers have been buying each year/new revision

How do you think GPU mining can't carry on and grow. Back in the 90's we had very few GPUS now we have lots. What do you think has happened for that to happen.

Some gamers are thinking of leaving PC's behind....Some.. How many, Just so we can tell Nvidia/Amd. All speculation.


Demand has outstripped supply. Do you think NVidia/amd are sat there thinking well we can only produce so many!!!! No they will be looking at increasing production to meet demand...Thats how it works. Now thats a concept that isn't hard to grasp!!

Demand is insatiable. You can't satisfy demand from the global mining community. Mission impossible.

THat's the chief difference between gamers and miners. Give every PC gamer a 1080ti and demand would be virtually nothing, until the next gen.

Give every miner a 1080ti and he says, "Where's the rest?! I ordered 500!"

Onto number 4

Really, you really don't think they have the next few revisions already lined up.. They drip feed them to gamers and have done so for years. So you keep buying the next must have card because you really must get 160fps because last years 140fps just wont do.

Hardly. A £250 (cough I mean £450) RX 580 barely manages 1080p at 60 FPS, with dips into the 30s frequently. Excuse me for thinking about upgrading. Well, I'm not anymore, thanks to you miners I have a PS4 now and my PC will start to gather dust at this rate.

 

[melmac]

Nice sarcasm....

How about you answer a few simple questions....

1) do you think gpu crypto coin mining is likely to continue at the current or a greater rate for the forseable future?

2) is the current level of GPU prices which is to a large extent the result of crypto mining negatively affecting the more traditional market for enthusiast /gaming PC's by driving people away from it due to the cost prohibitive nature of certain components?
(especially if it continues for any length of time)

3) if I told you that I could double your salary this year but in doing so you may lose a not insubstantial chunk of your salary for every year going forwards after that for some time (with no prospect of changing to another job) would you take my offer?

4) what happens to the balance sheets of a company like Nvidia if a lot of second hand GPU's suddenly flood the marker all at once at reduced prices due to GPU crypto mining taking a downturn? (not like no one hasn't suffered this fate to a degree before now is it?) 1080ti's are in a fair few mining rigs these days and I doubt Nvidia have/ can put out a card significantly better for a competitive price against the price of used 1080ti's if the second hand market gets flooded with them...

I'll leave it to Nvidia to make their own minds up about what's in their best corporate interests

I'll answer your questions.

1. People have been mining for years now. The exact same statements you are making now were been made 10 years ago. The miners that have stayed with it for the long haul have done very, very well out of it.

2. When the 1080/1070 launched, people complained that the high price of cards was going to drive people away from PC gaming. Instead Nvidia made record profits. Second, before Christmas all these cards were in stock at reasonable prices and nobody was buying them. Where were all the gamers a month ago??

3. What a stupid question? Of course not. But, that's not what mining is.

4. AMD suffered with that problem because they gambled that the mining demand would continue and over produced. When the mining bubble burst AMD were left with a huge stock pile of unsold cards. That won't happen this time because both AMD and Nvidia are keeping tight control over stock levels. You really think the second hand market will significantly affect the sales of new cards? I doubt it. Nvidia have already shown that people are willing to pay big money for a modest performance increase. If the next cards are good enough they will sale well.

Nvidia have already shown what's in their best corporate interests. They continue to bulk sell to miners

 

[Frozennova]

The mass GPU miners won't stick to their 'hobby' if they don't think they will make money!

Who do you think you fooling? I have a 1080ti and I could leave it mining when I'm not gaming and say its part of a hobby... Buying 1000's of pounds worth of equipment to mine is not a hobby stop trying to claim that it is.

If mining is no longer profitable the mining 'hobbyists' with masses of GPU's won't continue on regardless for the joy of it

I'll still be involved, my hobby around crypto stems much further than just mining myself

If you're intent on calling gamers greedy... how about I highlight this crucial difference:

The "greed" of a gamer can be satisfied in the main by a single GPU, even if it's a top-end GPU like a 1080ti.

The "greed" of a miner cannot be satisfied by any amount of GPUs, and skyrocketing prices do little to abate that greed.

In other words, the gamer's greed is very short-lived. The miner's greed lasts forever

And I can pretty much guarantee in the main the average miner has only one GPU.

In fact of the 70 or so people currently connected to one of my mining pools less than 10% of those have more than 2 cards.

I don't know the exact percentage but at a guess another 10-20% of those are mining on a CPU/CPUs rather than a GPU too

 

[mattyg]

I'll answer your questions.

1. People have been mining for years now. The exact same statements you are making now were been made 10 years ago. The miners that have stayed with it for the long haul have done very, very well out of it.

2. When the 1080/1070 launched, people complained that the high price of cards was going to drive people away from PC gaming. Instead Nvidia made record profits. Second, before Christmas all these cards were in stock at reasonable prices and nobody was buying them. Where were all the gamers a month ago??

3. What a stupid question? Of course not. But, that's not what mining is.

4. AMD suffered with that problem because they gambled that the mining demand would continue and over produced. When the mining bubble burst AMD were left with a huge stock pile of unsold cards. That won't happen this time because both AMD and Nvidia are keeping tight control over tock levels. You really think the second hand market will significantly affect the sales of new cards? I doubt it. Nvidia have already shown that people are willing to pay big money for a modest performance increase. If the next cards are good enough they will sale well.

Nvidia have already shown what's in their best corporate interests. They continue to bulk sell to miners

Yeah what he said

Put much more eloquently than I..

 

[FoxEye]

I'll still be involved, my hobby around crypto stems much further than just mining myself

And I can pretty much guarantee in the main the average miner has only one GPU.

In fact of the 70 or so people currently connected to one of my mining pools less than 10% of those have more than 2 cards

And I can "pretty much" guarantee that there are no gamers with 10+ GPUs in a rack (for the purposes of gaming).

Meanwhile, nVidia, EVGA et all are bulk selling thousands of cards directly to miners leaving the retail channel devoid of stock, and soaring prices.

Not gamers doing that, is it.

 

[Gzero]

And I can "pretty much" guarantee that there are no gamers with 10+ GPUs in a rack (for the purposes of gaming).

Meanwhile, nVidia, EVGA et all are bulk selling thousands of cards directly to miners leaving the retail channel devoid of stock, and soaring prices.

Not gamers doing that, is it.

Yeah it's the hypocrites at Nvidia (puts out statement to sell to gamers only, behind closed doors sells to miners in bulk..) etc doing it.

Actually, it's funny how Nvidia and AMD never have enough stock on launch recently even before the mining craze forcing prices up (970 for example), yet now it's the EVUL MINERS FAULT!

 

[Frozennova]

And I can "pretty much" guarantee that there are no gamers with 10+ GPUs in a rack (for the purposes of gaming).

Meanwhile, nVidia, EVGA et all are bulk selling thousands of cards directly to miners leaving the retail channel devoid of stock, and soaring prices.

Not gamers doing that, is it.

And who is at fault there

The "greedy" miners or the "greedy" manufacturers and retailers for inflating prices and bulk selling?

They were happy to sell 570s for £210 6 weeks ago so why bump the price up £100 per unit

 

[Martini1991]

And who is at fault there

The "greedy" miners or the "greedy" manufacturers and retailers for inflating prices and bulk selling?

They were happy to sell 570s for £210 6 weeks ago so why bump the price up £100 per unit

Perhaps there was supply? You're forgetting the other periods recently where 570's were also at the same types of levels seen now.

Without getting into the debate of morals etc, it's a fallacy that anyone can deny mining has both caused the GPU shortage and increased pricing. When you've got people mining with triple digit GPU's it's blindingly obvious.

 

[FoxEye]

And who is at fault there

The "greedy" miners or the "greedy" manufacturers and retailers for inflating prices and bulk selling?

They were happy to sell 570s for £210 6 weeks ago so why bump the price up £100 per unit

At the end of the day, the demand from mining is insatiable no matter how much they manufacture.

A hundred thousand cards, five million, ten million... the miners will take them all. Forever and ever, amen.

This is the reality of 2018.

 

[melmac]

Because it's already bad for the environment and the more people who do it the worse it will get (it can't have less impact for more electricity used).

If you consider environmental impact to be a bad argument then that's the end of the debate - our viewpoints are diametrically opposed.

Also it really is laughable that a gamer wanting a single card at a reasonable price could in any measurement be more greedy than a miner buying up endless amounts of GPUs. Just not grounded in any kind of logic I'm afraid.

You can talk about unjustified expectations/entitlement, but to insinuate that this expectation is akin to greed is pure nonsense. You really can't be greedy if you seek or enjoy a tiny share compared to others. That's the opposite of greed.

I'm far from alone btw in being dubious about the impact of PoW mining on the environment, however "weak" that is in your opinion. Here's a random site for architects expressing concern...

https://architosh.com/2018/01/the-ethical-conundrum-of-bitcoin-for-sustainable-architects/

There are thousands of articles expressing concern.

I said this before, the misinformation about electricity used all came from one article and has been relayed all over the web since. I can link to the site that analysed those numbers, first that the numbers seemed to be way off and second, if the numbers were true, then it still only amounts to a fraction of 1% of the global demand. The sensationalist click bait title of saying that Bitcoin mining uses the same electricity as a small country does bring in a lot of business.

You are also forgetting that Miners want to use as little electricity as possible and any serious miner will look for as many ways as possible to reduce the power they use.

I get it, its not been selfish if I want a card for myself to game on, but it is greed if I want a card for myself to mine on. And if I decide to invest my money in 1000 GPUs that's greed. I am sorry, I don't follow that logic at all. It sounds petty. What arbitrary figure are you putting forward as been greedy? What random number are you suggesting a person should earn?

If a person wants to buy a GPU, that's his business. If he wants to buy 100 GPU's that's his business too.

I see lots of sites been dubious, then when I read those sites, I realise that they don't understand how it works and are mostly taking info from other sites.

 

[melmac]

At the end of the day, the demand from mining is insatiable no matter how much they manufacture.

A hundred thousand cards, five million, ten million... the miners will take them all. Forever and ever, amen.

This is the reality of 2018.

You really are the worst case scenario all the time about everything.

 

[Martini1991]

You really are the worst case scenario all the time about everything.

He's not wrong with the end point in regards to having an insatiable demand.