Not discriminating is discrimination

[TJM]

I would imagine the vast majority of the public aren’t aware of that.

No kidding. This thread is a good example - the perpetually outraged appear completely unaware that every other coroner in the country, including coroners in areas with proportionally larger Jewish and Muslims populations, is prepared to expedite the release of remains for religious reasons and yet the bodies of unbelievers are not piling up in morgues.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, coroners usually don’t start screaming about rationality and sky faeries when a grieving family say a delayed burial will add to their distress. It’s almost as if people should be shown all possible consideration at the worst moments of their lives.

As many of the regulars are struggling to empathise with people who have religious beliefs, try this scenario:

A family are visiting the UK on holiday and the dad dies of a heart attack. The family is desperate to have the body released so it can be brought home as soon as possible. Your response as the coroner would be:

(a) I understand and the duty coroner will deal with it ASAP.
(b) Get bent.

 

[Angilion]

No, no it doesn't. The amount of melodrama in here is predictable, but silly. The thing that many people miss is that equality (especially the legal requirements around it) do not mean treating everyone the same. That's understandable as most of the time we mean equity when we say equality.

Treating everyone the same doesn't lead to equity.

That's a great cartoon for the purpose of promoting irrational prejudice and discrimination and corrupting and destroying the whole idea of equality. Which is presumably what the cartoon was created for.

Everyone who favours irrational prejudice and discrimination has a rationalisation for it, but only modern regressives have gone as far as calling it equality. In a detached way I can appreciate the effectiveness of doing so as a political tool. It's grotesque and vile, but it is effective. It seems to me that the modern regressive left has read George Orwell's writing and taken it as a guide rather than a warning. All group identities are equal, but some are more equal than others is from Animal Farm and the authoritarianism and deliberate corruption of language to suppress thought is from 1984. Doubleplusgood Newspeak, Citizen!

Would you be OK with "white" people being given priority over "black" people by the state because whitists demanded it, had enough power to get it and called it fair? If not, why not? You approve of the general principle.

 

[Angilion]

By how long?

There is no time limit given. Could be hours, could be days, could be weeks, could be months. Strictly speaking, it could be forever. It all depends on resources and chance.

When people with the "wrong" group identity are always forced to the back of the queue, when or even if they get to the front of the queue is determined by the number of people with the "right" group identity and the rate at which the queue is processed.

Consider, for example, a bar which will serve "black" people only if no "white" people want to be served. A "black" person enters the queue at number 4, behind 3 "white" people. The first two are served, so the "black" person moves to 2nd in the queue...but then a couple of "white" people come into the bar and the "black" person has to move to behind them in the queue because "white" people have superior status in this bar. So now the "black" person is back at 4th in the queue. Maybe next time they will make it to the bar and maybe they won't. Maybe they'll be pushed back again and again and not get served for hours. Maybe not before the bar closes.

 

[cheesyboy]

What matters is that non Jews and Muslims will necessarily be disadvantaged, time wise, by this ruling. Its not logically possible to argue otherwise!

Unless this ruling gives rise to a surge in deaths (specifically Jew and Muslim deaths) then logically there will, in fact, be no disadvantage to non-Jewish/muslims relative to the status quo.

If 10 Jews or muslims skip in front of you because of this , then those 10 will be balanced out by another 10 who would have anyway been in front of you under the old system (but aren't because they already cleared out of the way through their priority boarding)

It's not like a theme park where you might change your behaviour ( ride or not-ride) if you have the opportunity to skip the queue. Not a lot of choice in dying.

 

[cheesyboy]

That's a great cartoon for the purpose of promoting irrational prejudice and discrimination and corrupting and destroying the whole idea of equality. Which is presumably what the cartoon was created for.

Everyone who favours irrational prejudice and discrimination has a rationalisation for it, but only modern regressives have gone as far as calling it equality. In a detached way I can appreciate the effectiveness of doing so as a political tool. It's grotesque and vile, but it is effective. It seems to me that the modern regressive left has read George Orwell's writing and taken it as a guide rather than a warning. All group identities are equal, but some are more equal than others is from Animal Farm and the authoritarianism and deliberate corruption of language to suppress thought is from 1984. Doubleplusgood Newspeak, Citizen!

Would you be OK with "white" people being given priority over "black" people by the state because whitists demanded it, had enough power to get it and called it fair? If not, why not? You approve of the general principle.

This is an awful lot of nonsense. Impressively so.

 

[Angilion]

This is an awful lot of nonsense. Impressively so.

You can neither refute it nor answer the question. Which is why you haven't tried.

 

[dowie]

Unless this ruling gives rise to a surge in deaths (specifically Jew and Muslim deaths) then logically there will, in fact, be no disadvantage to non-Jewish/muslims relative to the status quo.

Rate of deaths is irrelevant when comparing both systems and for a fair comparison you should assume the same time period/rate of deaths.

Of course it will affect non-Muslims/Jews - if there are now people who skip the queue then you increase the expected waiting time for the rest.

 

[enkoda]

Many non-religious beliefs also are non-evidence based, indeed just as arbitrary. We are human after all.

I'm at a loss trying to think of any non-religious, non-evidence based beliefs that enjoy such elevated privileges and protection under the law as religious ones....

 

[cheesyboy]

Rate of deaths is irrelevant when comparing both systems and for a fair comparison you should assume the same time period/rate of deaths.

Of course it will affect non-Muslims/Jews - if there are now people who skip the queue then you increase the expected waiting time for the rest.

It may be difficult to get your head around, but no - expected waiting times don't increase . The rest of the post you quoted explains it.

Basically, unless this fasttrack system increases the number of participants (and it won't, of course) then the same number of Muslim and Jew deaths will be processed, at the same frequency as before, so why would that slow things down for others?

 

[cheesyboy]

You can neither refute it nor answer the question. Which is why you haven't tried.

It's not the question that's nonsense, it's the whole thing. You post the same crap just about every time I see you post anything.

 

[Caracus2k]

It may be difficult to get your head around, but no - expected waiting times don't increase . The rest of the post you quoted explains it.

Basically, unless this fasttrack system increases the number of participants (and it won't, of course) then the same number of Muslim and Jew deaths will be processed, at the same frequency as before, so why would that slow things down for others?

What total nonsense on stilts!

The whole reason the Jews and muslims were kicking of is because they wanted preferential treatment where their dead relatives took priority and were processed quickly.

Unless the Coroner's Office and mortuarys increase their resources at the same time this will necessarily be to the (time) detriment of non Jews and Muslims.

That you are (apparently) seriously are arguing this isn't the case is quite bizarre.

The coroner was previously operating a 'cab rank rule'..... first in first out...

Jews and Muslims will now jump ahead in the que past non Jews and Muslims!

Dead bodies aren't generally immediately dealt with. If they need a post mortem or scan the will be stored until the relevant staff and resources are available.

So auntie Ethel (no religion) who came in yesterday will now be bumped a day or two as Mohammed and Yaron came in today......

 

[Caracus2k]

That's a great cartoon for the purpose of promoting irrational prejudice and discrimination and corrupting and destroying the whole idea of equality.

As I previously pointed out in this context its also doubly ridiculous! To use it implies Jews and muslims are (inherenty) less able or unable to complete a certain task (wait along with everyone else in a que) rather then just wanting special privelleges.

The picture should actually show a line of monkeys in front of the man with two of them asking for a head start to get to the top of the tree because they have some personal belief the other monkeys don't!

 

[kitch9]

Just trying to wrap my brain around this concept. A coroner has a policy of dealing with cases in the order they arrive, without discriminating based on religion. A judge has ruled this to be discrimination. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-43922000

Huh?

Religion is taking over.

Because the 'equality' isn't the type of service, it's in the suitability of the service. Much like providing ramps and lifts and massive toilets for wheelchair users.

A wait of a week or two is entirely acceptable to most (certainly never heard anyone complain about it) , but would be distressing to those for whom it runs against their beliefs.

Frankly, it seems entirely in keeping with British values of decency to allow those for whom such things matter to be given an expedited service.

Yeah, we all waiting ages to have the funeral of a dead loved one.

Makes me all warm and snuggly inside.

 

[cheesyboy]

What total nonsense on stilts!

The whole reason the Jews and muslims were kicking of is because they wanted preferential treatment where their dead relatives took priority and were processed quickly.

Unless the Coroner's Office and mortuarys increase their resources at the same time this will necessarily be to the (time) detriment of non Jews and Muslims.

That you are (apparently) seriously are arguing this isn't the case is quite bizarre.

The coroner was previously operating a 'cab rank rule'..... first in first out...

Jews and Muslims will now jump ahead in the que past non Jews and Muslims!

Dead bodies aren't generally immediately dealt with. If they need a post mortem or scan the will be stored until the relevant staff and resources are available.

So auntie Ethel (no religion) who came in yesterday will now be bumped a day or two as Mohammed and Yaron came in today......

It's just maths, mate.

Imagine a queue of 101 people. Take out every 10th person, and you now have a queue of 91.

Now you add those 10 back in, at the front of the queue, as they die. 9 people through, add one in, 9 more people through, add one in.....

How many people go through the system before that guy who started in 101st gets his turn?

 

[Caracus2k]

A wait of a week or two is entirely acceptable to most (certainly never heard anyone complain about it) , but would be distressing to those for whom it runs against their beliefs.

Well not quite two weeks but rather close....

A couple have slammed the local authorities after it took 15 days to issue a death certificate.

Your suggestion that non Muslims and Jews won't mind waiting weeks for their dead relatives to be processed whilst Jews and Muslims jump the que is demonstrable nonsense.

And the bizzare attempts at equating providing extra or expanded services for the disabled (so they can in effect access goods and services in a similar fashion to non disabled people) with people who have certain fantastical mythical beliefs being offered preferential services are rather insulting to disabled people. A person in a wheel chair is inherently not capable of using a facility on their own if it involves going up a load of stairs without a ramp available. Placing the ramp next to the stairs just enables them to use the facility at all.

 

[Caracus2k]

It's just maths, mate.

Imagine a queue of 101 people. Take out every 10th person, and you now have a queue of 91.

Now you add those 10 back in, at the front of the queue, as they die. 9 people through, add one in, 9 more people through, add one in.....

How many people go through the system before that guy who started in 101st gets his turn?

Why are you persisting with this nonsense. The Jews and the Muslims wanted a quicker service. Without more resources it follows that non Jews and muslims will have a slower service. This is a fact.

Giving up a seat on a public bus isn't much of an inconvenience in the grand scale of things (ditto for having to go to the back of the bus in the first place)


But it was a defining moment that lead to the end of another system of unjust group based discrimination.

 

[cheesyboy]

Why are you persisting with this nonsense. The Jews and the Muslims wanted a quicker service. Without more resources it follows that non Jews and muslims will have a slower service. This is a fact.

Why would more resources be needed when the same number of people are dying?

 

[Caracus2k]

Why would more resources be needed when the same number of people are dying?

If you don't want the non Jews and Muslims having to wait longer, on average, because they are now being bumped by Jews and Muslims.


If you don't provide extra resources then non jews and muslims will necessarily be disadvantaged, time wise over current waits. Obviously more resources won't actually be provided!

 

[cheesyboy]

If you don't want the non Jews and Muslims having to wait longer, on average, because they are now being bumped by Jews and Muslims.


If you don't provide extra resources then non jews and muslims will necessarily be disadvantaged, time wise over current waits. Obviously more resources won't actually be provided!

See my above explanation with the 101 person queue.

It just doesn't work like you seem to think it does

 

[Caracus2k]

See my above explanation with the 101 person queue.

It just doesn't work like you seem to think it does

I'm not going round in circles with you anymore. Without extra resources you can't offer a quicker service to one group without offering a slower one to another.

Non jews and muslims will be disadvantaged by this ruling.