Not discriminating is discrimination

[Zatoichi.uK]

Sorry but I had to laugh at the BBC article with Abdul Hai from Camden council claiming he was happy with the result and it's brought things "Into the 21st century".

Sigh...

 

[cheesyboy]

I'm not going round in circles with you anymore. Without extra resources you can't offer a quicker service to one group without offering a slower one to another.

Non jews and muslims will be disadvantaged by this ruling.

Why don't you detail the mechanism by which your delay will arise. I've already laid out why a delay won't happen, but you have simply asserted that it will

 

[Orionaut]

It's just maths, mate.

Imagine a queue of 101 people. Take out every 10th person, and you now have a queue of 91.

Now you add those 10 back in, at the front of the queue, as they die. 9 people through, add one in, 9 more people through, add one in.....

How many people go through the system before that guy who started in 101st gets his turn?

A better analogy is waiting for a minor operation at a NHS hospital (Or not even that Minor, eg Heart Bypass for angina)

Operations are generally prioritized on "Clinical Need" rather than "Cab Rank" basis

Op booked for Tuesday the 15th. But on Tuesday morning there is an accident on the bypass....Op canceled.

OK Come in next Wednesday week. But somebody manages to chop a finger off in an industrial accident..Op Cancelled

Rinse and repeat, people often die on this merry go round, simply because, on the day, somebody with an immediate critical clinical need bumps their operation because their clinical need is deemed greater.

For "Clinical Need" read "Religious priority"

 

[stockhausen]

[SNIP]
For "Clinical Need" read "Religious priority"

Demonstrably provble "Clinical Need" and unprovable faith based "Religious priority" are now given equal justification are they?

 

[enkoda]

Demonstrably provble "Clinical Need" and unprovable faith based "Religious priority" are now given equal justification are they?

They are in the eyes of the law, yes.

You only have to look at Jewish circumcision to see religious privilege refuting your point.

 

[stockhausen]

They are in the eyes of the law, yes. [SNIP]

That'll be the law that stems from the days when the Earth was known to be flat, the Sun revolved around the Earth, witches were "ducked" and then burned at the stake will it?

Of course, irrational believers in a superior being still have a number of guaranteed seats in the House of Lords.

[SNIP] You only have to look at Jewish circumcision to see religious privilege refuting your point.

It is my understanding that the need for male genital mutilation was based on problems resulting from poor hygiene and desert sand getting under the foreskin?

 

[D.P.]

Rate of deaths is irrelevant when comparing both systems and for a fair comparison you should assume the same time period/rate of deaths.

Of course it will affect non-Muslims/Jews - if there are now people who skip the queue then you increase the expected waiting time for the rest.

The expected waiting time is purely a function of death rate and coroner processing rate. neither of which change when there is an ordering change.

 

[Roar87]

It seems fairly straight forward to me that if Jews and Muslims want to be seen first then they should pay for a private Coroner service, that would seem absolutely obvious. Otherwise where do you draw the line?

 

[Burnsy2023]

It seems fairly straight forward to me that if Jews and Muslims want to be seen first then they should pay for a private Coroner service, that would seem absolutely obvious. Otherwise where do you draw the line?

If you think the work a Coronor does can be privatised, then you clearly don't understand their role.

 

[cheesyboy]

It seems fairly straight forward to me that if Jews and Muslims want to be seen first then they should pay for a private Coroner service, that would seem absolutely obvious. Otherwise where do you draw the line?

A slippery slope towards getting a service tailored to our individual needs. A dangerous path we walk....

 

[Roar87]

If you think the work a Coronor does can be privatised, then you clearly don't understand their role.

That's true I have absolutely no idea about their role, what's stopping someone else paying their wage other than the government though?

 

[Burnsy2023]

That's true I have absolutely no idea about their role, what's stopping someone else paying their wage other than the government though?

A coroner is a judicial office and a coroner's court is a court of law. The investigations and power that they have is not something that should be in the private sector.

 

[Roar87]

A coroner is a judicial office and a coroner's court is a court of law. The investigations and power that they have is not something that should be in the private sector.

Ok so privatisation is the wrong way to go about it, but the point still stands that if you want a better service than someone else from a public service then you should have to pay more, otherwise everyone should be treated the same.

 

[enkoda]

That'll be the law that stems from the days when the Earth was known to be flat, the Sun revolved around the Earth, witches were "ducked" and then burned at the stake will it?

Of course, irrational believers in a superior being still have a number of guaranteed seats in the House of Lords.

Up until 1967 it was still a criminal offence in this country for two men to have sex. The only basis for this was because the Bible said homosexuality was wrong.

It is my understanding that the need for male genital mutilation was based on problems resulting from poor hygiene and desert sand getting under the foreskin?

Silly me, I forgot just how sandy central London was.

 

[Caracus2k]

Why don't you detail the mechanism by which your delay will arise. I've already laid out why a delay won't happen, but you have simply asserted that it will

I did already, you obviously were not paying attention....

Dead bodies aren't generally immediately dealt with. If they need a post mortem or scan the will be stored until the relevant staff and resources are available.

So auntie Ethel (no religion) who came in yesterday will now be bumped a day or two as Mohammed and Yaron came in today......

By re ordering the queue the average person in the list still gets dealt with at the same time ....

But this ruling means that this (overall average) is maintained by making the average wait for a Jew or Muslim shorter whilst the average for those that are not gets longer.

Its really not hard to understand!

Why don't you try to explain why the Jews and Muslims were kicking off such a fuss in the first place if reordering the que wont make their waits shorter?

As you apparently think that re ordering the que has not effect on wait times? (for specific groups that are the subject of the re ordering not the overall average)

Seriously its like arguing with someone who asserts the world is flat!​

 

[dowie]

The expected waiting time is purely a function of death rate and coroner processing rate. neither of which change when there is an ordering change.

Nope as you've now got two classes of people, it is no longer a single queue where everyone has equal priority but you now have a chance at any time that you can be shifted down a place if you're not in the priority group.

 

[dowie]

Basically, unless this fasttrack system increases the number of participants (and it won't, of course) then the same number of Muslim and Jew deaths will be processed, at the same frequency as before, so why would that slow things down for others?

On average no it won't, but given you're a Jew or Muslim it will decrease (as you have priority) and given you're a non-Jew/Muslim it will increase.

Sure the average overall doesn't change, I pointed that out already, assume the same death rate, same time to process each person etc... but with one model where you speed up the wait time for one group you increase it for the other precisely because the overall rate is the same.

 

[Caracus2k]

It may be difficult to get your head around, but no - expected waiting times don't increase . The rest of the post you quoted explains it.

Basically, unless this fasttrack system increases the number of participants (and it won't, of course) then the same number of Muslim and Jew deaths will be processed, at the same frequency as before, so why would that slow things down for others?

why do people pay considerable money at fairgrounds for 'fasttrack' passes if it doesn't effect wait times for the specific groups in question (those with and without 'fasttrack' passes in this case).

Assuming the introduction of a fasttrack system doesn't effect the overall amount of people using a ride overall wait times will be (roughly) the same (remember that merely the admin for any fasttrack system will cause some delay rather then a first in first out que).

The state just handed Jews and Muslims a free fasttrack pass based on their particular mythical and fantastical beliefs!

Can you imagine if somewhere like Alton Towers had a policy of handing a particular gender or racial group a 'fasttrack' pass for free on entry and then came out with some weasel words about it not having any (significant) effect on overall que waiting times for all people in the queues?

 

[D.P.]

Nope as you've now got two classes of people, it is no longer a single queue where everyone has equal priority but you now have a chance at any time that you can be shifted down a place if you're not in the priority group.

Of course but the total queue length and processing time remains the same, so there will be no back log of bodies to deal with and the maximum delay wont change. I.e. it is a complete nothing burger.

 

[dowie]

Of course but the total queue length and processing time remains the same, so there will be no back log of bodies to deal with and the maximum delay wont change. I.e. it is a complete nothing burger.

Well that was stated at the start and is irrelevant. Assume same death rate, same processing times etc...

The conversation was about other people not in the priority group facing longer waiting get times.