Thai cave rescue - One of the divers has died

Apparently the kids have been given free tickets to the World Cup final, assuming they're free by then.

I hope no-one tells them until a rescue plan in definitely "on" or they're going to be even more ****** off if they're still stuck there on the day.
 
You've not done a scuba course then?

The first hurdle is to convince your body you can breath when under the water. Seems strightforwards paper but I've seem people struggle with this

Tried it once in a pool. Was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to breathe. I totally acknowledge this is different scenario - but i state again - the kids can have a whole team each and traverse one section at a time. The whole thing isnt under water.


Musk and I have similar outlook i think, except he is a billionnaire and im not. I work in an office.


To spell it out.

You station a team at every non submerged section and you bring the kids through a bit at a time

Air should be being pumped in.

No need for tanks, use pumped air lines.

Powerful lights illuminating every crevice and underwater area.

Get more pumps in and dewater it faster.

Get the screaming locals off site and put the area under full British military control with proper western incident management in place.

Use the experts, but they dont run the operation, an experienced incident controller does*




* a few years ago i unfortunately was in Wales when that child was kidnapped and i drove through the area where they were searching the river. I was amazed at the sheer coordination and expertise of the senior incident controller on site. It was like nothing ive ever seen even on films. The setup in Thailand is amateur in comparision, going off news photos.
 
Awful, can't imagine going through something like that.

I don't know why you would do it to yourself. The deepest part was 130m, so the decompression stops amounted to something like 5 hours if it had all gone fine. The 20mins one guy spent unsuccessfully stopping his mate drowning at 130m pushed his requirement for decompression stops to 11 hours. He didn't have the air in the end, surfaced sooner and got the bends. It is a zero tolerance for error "sport".
 
Tried it once in a pool. Was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to breathe. I totally acknowledge this is different scenario - but i state again - the kids can have a whole team each and traverse one section at a time. The whole thing isnt under water.


Musk and I have similar outlook i think, except he is a billionnaire and im not. I work in an office.


To spell it out.

You station a team at every non submerged section and you bring the kids through a bit at a time

Air should be being pumped in.

No need for tanks, use pumped air lines.

Powerful lights illuminating every crevice and underwater area.

Get more pumps in and dewater it faster.

Get the screaming locals off site and put the area under full British military control with proper western incident management in place.

Use the experts, but they dont run the operation, an experienced incident controller does*




* a few years ago i unfortunately was in Wales when that child was kidnapped and i drove through the area where they were searching the river. I was amazed at the sheer coordination and expertise of the senior incident controller on site. It was like nothing ive ever seen even on films. The setup in Thailand is amateur in comparision, going off news photos.

I'm not 100% on the realities of this cave - but if they have underwater sections with constricted movement, poor ability to light due to the size and shape and twists or turns, etc. then getting someone through untrained even with trained people around them is a mammoth task - only the very smallest of children would they be able to pass through as an uncooperative load.

If it is anything like I imagine people are going to die trying to get 13 kids through that way.
 
Situation is awful. I cannot imagine what it's like for these kids. Especially the first 9 days in total blackness with nothing to eat either. There is a suggestion that Thai authorities are reluctant to give up control to the experts required because they don't want to look weak. Lets hope the best of the best get given the chance to co-ordinate a plan that is badly required. Having the families on site helps no-one either.
 
Tried it once in a pool. Was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to breathe. I totally acknowledge this is different scenario - but i state again - the kids can have a whole team each and traverse one section at a time. The whole thing isnt under water.


Musk and I have similar outlook i think, except he is a billionnaire and im not. I work in an office.


To spell it out.

You station a team at every non submerged section and you bring the kids through a bit at a time

Air should be being pumped in.

No need for tanks, use pumped air lines.

Powerful lights illuminating every crevice and underwater area.

Get more pumps in and dewater it faster.

Get the screaming locals off site and put the area under full British military control with proper western incident management in place.

Use the experts, but they dont run the operation, an experienced incident controller does*




* a few years ago i unfortunately was in Wales when that child was kidnapped and i drove through the area where they were searching the river. I was amazed at the sheer coordination and expertise of the senior incident controller on site. It was like nothing ive ever seen even on films. The setup in Thailand is amateur in comparision, going off news photos.

You've seriously got to be joking now. Put the area under full British military control? It's a foreign country, the only way you'd get British control is to invade first. The government wouldn't allow another nation's military to just take over. Assist and co-operate, sure, but be in full control without any Thai involvement? Come on, you've watched too many films.

And you're nothing like Musk. His suggestions actually have merit, and he's in serious discussion with a Thai space engineering expert who agrees with what he's suggesting. He's also sent engineers and members from SpaceX and The Boring Company to assist, along with full battery packs to give portability where they desperately need it. Add to that the fact that the site already has thousands of experts that have clearly been discussing and discounting options from the day they arrived, it clearly isn't anywhere near as simple as you seem to think it is, otherwise they'd have done it by now.

If you were in charge there, those kids would be dead. "Put them under anaesthetic if they panic and then drag them through the cave system by cable". All anaesthetic would do is make them less susceptible to pain, not stop them from panicking. Sure, good idea. That'll definitely get them out safely!

Finally, your comparison of a river search vs a water-filled cave are nowhere near the same situation. You can't even remotely compare, given that diving in a river poses far less danger than the diving in this cave system.

Maybe you should turn off your computer and get some fresh air. It might help whatever it is causing your brain to send the signals to your fingers to write such nonsense.
 
How are you going to fit the "huge team" into a 2ft x 2ft sump which is about 200m long of enclosed diving in pitch black?

What I find really unsettling (though never done it underwater and have no inclination to try) is a confined space into a chimney - sometimes a sump like entry - where you slide through on your back with zero clearance - even just for say 20 feet - then have just enough space at the end to rotate into to a vertical climb :s for some reason I find that deeply unsettling.
 
You've seriously got to be joking now. Put the area under full British military control? It's a foreign country, the only way you'd get British control is to invade first. The government wouldn't allow another nation's military to just take over. Assist and co-operate, sure, but be in full control without any Thai involvement? Come on, you've watched too many films.

To be fair what he is suggesting (just in respect to site control) isn't full control without Thai involvement and has been done before for rescue operations.
 
Tried it once in a pool. Was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to breathe. I totally acknowledge this is different scenario - but i state again - the kids can have a whole team each and traverse one section at a time. The whole thing isnt under water.


Musk and I have similar outlook i think, except he is a billionnaire and im not. I work in an office.


To spell it out.

You station a team at every non submerged section and you bring the kids through a bit at a time

Air should be being pumped in.

No need for tanks, use pumped air lines.

Powerful lights illuminating every crevice and underwater area.

You clearly aren't an engineer either. How to you propose these air hoses are deployed? Will each diver be connected to a 2.5km long umbilical which will be threaded through the cave? Where will the umbilical be connected to each diver? Deep sea diving surface fed hoses usually go directly to a helmet and don't permit much movement at all. The pressure required to pump air along a 2.5km hose will obviously be higher than normal scuba gear and the hose required may be too rigid. What happens when you get to a tight spot and you have to manipulate the hose around yourself? If it's rigid it could run the risk of pulling the mask off your face if you make a wrong move.

Reeling in a 2.5km hose at the source to stop any loose flappy bits getting caught in the tunnels as the diver moves will be a logistical and communications nightmare. It's a **** idea.
 
You've seriously got to be joking now. Put the area under full British military control? It's a foreign country, the only way you'd get British control is to invade first. The government wouldn't allow another nation's military to just take over. Assist and co-operate, sure, but be in full control without any Thai involvement? Come on, you've watched too many films.

And you're nothing like Musk. His suggestions actually have merit, and he's in serious discussion with a Thai space engineering expert who agrees with what he's suggesting. He's also sent engineers and members from SpaceX and The Boring Company to assist, along with full battery packs to give portability where they desperately need it. Add to that the fact that the site already has thousands of experts that have clearly been discussing and discounting options from the day they arrived, it clearly isn't anywhere near as simple as you seem to think it is, otherwise they'd have done it by now.

If you were in charge there, those kids would be dead. "Put them under anaesthetic if they panic and then drag them through the cave system by cable". All anaesthetic would do is make them less susceptible to pain, not stop them from panicking. Sure, good idea. That'll definitely get them out safely!

Finally, your comparison of a river search vs a water-filled cave are nowhere near the same situation. You can't even remotely compare, given that diving in a river poses far less danger than the diving in this cave system.

Maybe you should turn off your computer and get some fresh air. It might help whatever it is causing your brain to send the signals to your fingers to write such nonsense.

If these kids die (and i hope with all my heart they dont) and the Thai government/military were found to have made errors, then yes, the better resources should have been comissioned.

Its great musk is helping out. The point is that he is in a position to help as he has resources to offer. He isnt just letting the traditional so called experts call all the shots and fail. He is supplying technology, which is what ive suggested all along - more lights, more pumps, air lines, etc.

anesthetic - im not talking about sedation im talkin about full knock out. get them out unconscious.

my comparision to the river search wasnt about the technicalities of the dive it was about the professional incident management which is missing here. armies in countries like this are nowhere near as well trained as our higher tier military and police incident control teams.

Maybe you should recognise that this country is more capable than the country currently dealing with this incident.
 
You clearly aren't an engineer either. How to you propose these air hoses are deployed? Will each diver be connected to a 2.5km long umbilical which will be threaded through the cave? Where will the umbilical be connected to each diver? Deep sea diving surface fed hoses usually go directly to a helmet and don't permit much movement at all. The pressure required to pump air along a 2.5km hose will obviously be higher than normal scuba gear and the hose required may be too rigid. What happens when you get to a tight spot and you have to manipulate the hose around yourself? If it's rigid it could run the risk of pulling the mask off your face if you make a wrong move.

Reeling in a 2.5km hose at the source to stop any loose flappy bits getting caught in the tunnels as the diver moves will be a logistical and communications nightmare. It's a **** idea.

Don't be silly. Its all super simple and all the people out there working probably 20 hours a day have just not thought about these things. They need to get some deep thinkers out there like danlightbulb. The dunning-kruger effect comes to mind.
 
You clearly aren't an engineer either. How to you propose these air hoses are deployed? Will each diver be connected to a 2.5km long umbilical which will be threaded through the cave? Where will the umbilical be connected to each diver? Deep sea diving surface fed hoses usually go directly to a helmet and don't permit much movement at all. The pressure required to pump air along a 2.5km hose will obviously be higher than normal scuba gear and the hose required may be too rigid. What happens when you get to a tight spot and you have to manipulate the hose around yourself? If it's rigid it could run the risk of pulling the mask off your face if you make a wrong move.

Reeling in a 2.5km hose at the source to stop any loose flappy bits getting caught in the tunnels as the diver moves will be a logistical and communications nightmare. It's a **** idea.

You set up intermediate stations along the route. Im not suggesting a 2.5 mile single line.

Also probably full face masks are more comfortable for the novice than traditional scuba mouthpieces.
 
If these kids die (and i
anesthetic - im not talking about sedation im talkin about full knock out. get them out unconscious

There is the slight problem that “full knock out” stops you breathing and protecting your airway. So now you need to send an anaesthetist down to intubate the kids, then you have to invent a ventilator that is also able to work under water, then drag a floppy anaethetised kid attached to said contraption through underwater tunnels. Good luck if they knock the tube out too or they start to wake up underwater on the 3hr trip.

Simples......

Let’s start crowd funding your plane ticket now.
 
Don't be silly. Its all super simple and all the people out there working probably 20 hours a day have just not thought about these things. They need to get some deep thinkers out there like danlightbulb. The dunning-kruger effect comes to mind.

Maybe they should just put a big cork in the entrance hole, connect loads of pumps together (more pumps, proper western ones) and fill the cave with high pressure air. Then they can quickly pull the plug out and the kids will get flushed out under pressure like they are swimming in a river of champagne. We can even get Elon Musk or a high ranking official from a western military force (only a top tier west country though - not Finland and certainly not somewhere like Thailand) to make sure that the cork is pulled out properly and with the adequate level of expertise.
 
What happened to the Chunnel boring machines, just helicopter those over and bore through to them. They'll make short work of that low quality third world ground. They'd probably reach them by lunchtime tomorrow.
 
Maybe you should recognise that this country is more capable than the country currently dealing with this incident.

Oh yes of course, now you've reminded me, it's obvious since we have 2 or 3 incidents a week in the British Isles with large groups kids lost and trapped in flooded deep cave systems, how forgetful of me....................


Also it isn't of course starting to become increasingly apparent that the command and control of the emergency services at Grenfell and at the Manchester Arena bombings was inadequate on both occasions.
 
If these kids die (and i hope with all my heart they dont) and the Thai government/military were found to have made errors, then yes, the better resources should have been comissioned.

Its great musk is helping out. The point is that he is in a position to help as he has resources to offer. He isnt just letting the traditional so called experts call all the shots and fail. He is supplying technology, which is what ive suggested all along - more lights, more pumps, air lines, etc.

anesthetic - im not talking about sedation im talkin about full knock out. get them out unconscious.

my comparision to the river search wasnt about the technicalities of the dive it was about the professional incident management which is missing here. armies in countries like this are nowhere near as well trained as our higher tier military and police incident control teams.

Maybe you should recognise that this country is more capable than the country currently dealing with this incident.

Maybe you should recognise that coming to the conclusion that it's been poorly dealt with up until now from you carefully studying pictures on the BBC doesn't give you any idea of how it's actually being handled?

Full-on "knock them out" would result in dead children. They'd need to have assistance breathing in that case, but it doesn't surprise me that you've suggested that. All this doesn't even take into consideration the expertise required to administer anaesthetic. That's why anaesthetists are paid more than anyone else in the health service. But yeah, some divers will just be able to sort this out when a child panics! It's just another thing that you think you know about when you clearly don't.

Why do you think that this country is more capable at dealing with this? You have no idea how well-trained their military nor anyone else on site is. It seems that you're just assuming that because it's not as modern a country, that they're clearly not as good at things. Their military will probably have more knowledge and expertise in the terrain and environment than most foreign military personnel would have there. And I wouldn't imagine that many military units would have a vast experience with cave diving anyway. Certainly not from an engineering point of view, but I'm happy to be corrected with that. I would imagine that most of the expertise would come from contractors or engineering companies like SpaceX, The Boring Company, and mu Space Corp, who are involved in this now as well.
 
Back
Top Bottom