Could Germany have won WW2?

Both armies were on Amphetamines and Churchill was on, well pretty much everything. Though on both counts it was prescribed.

Yep, that's pretty much how the German army took over so many places in such a short period of time, it helped them with their Blitzkrieg doctrine.

Hitler's personal doctor was also giving him a ton of drugs, which I believe amplified his parkinsons towards the end of the war.

There's a VERY good book that goes into detail about it all, called Blitzed. It's definitely worth a read at £9 - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blitzed-Drugs-Germany-Norman-Ohler/dp/0141983167


E: Just realised the post date of this thread. Nevermind.
 
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I think Hitler rushed the wars, probably because he wanted it done in his lifetime, and ended up fighting to many wars, as well as fighting on 2 fronts, which is a big no no.

When someone speaks "rubbish" for a long time they start believing their own hype. Thats when they usually fall.
 
The first question is could england have been invaded after the fall of france, in my opinion yes-
I don't mean to be rude, but your opinion is wrong. Even if Germany has eradicated the RAF (fighters AND bombers) and their invasion force somehow managed to somehow sail around the Royal Navy and set foot on our beaches all they would achieve is to prove that the UK had looser morality than the Nazis when it came to using chemical weapons against troops. We had large amounts stockpiled (and incendiary weapons) ready to eradicate any German landing force, it would have made the Normandy landings look like a stroll on a beach.


If moscow was taken would russia have collapsed?
No, the Russians actually expected to lose Moscow hence why they moved their factories/etc to the east. The Kremlin itself was even rigged with full demo charges because they didn't want the Germans to take it intact when they took Moscow.
 
We had large amounts stockpiled (and incendiary weapons) ready to eradicate any German landing force, it would have made the Normandy landings look like a stroll on a beach.

Somewhat out of desperation IIRC - while we spent quite a lot of time implementing impedances to landings we didn't have a complex fortification system to fight from and spread thin on available weaponry like machineguns, etc. after the losses at Dunkirk.
 
Somewhat out of desperation IIRC - while we spent quite a lot of time implementing impedances to landings we didn't have a complex fortification system to fight from and spread thin on available weaponry like machineguns, etc. after the losses at Dunkirk.

No, what we had was a series of "Stop lines", They may not look like much, but they would have seriously bogged down any fast advance away from the coast.

Ant is all about time and supply. The invading forces would have been cut off after week/10 days by the Royal navy (No doubt at great cost!) and bled dry of supplies.

Now, what might have happened afterwards, Who knows.

Germany would have lost , Hmmn, 250,000 Men Killed/Captured and all the equipment and resources that went into the attack.

The RAF would have been all but eliminated (Otherwise Sealion would never have gone ahead in the first place)

The Royal Navy would have suffered severe casualties blocking the channel in the face of Luftwaffe superiority.

We would also have lost many Men. Both Military and Civilian personnel.

SE England would have been laid waste.

Germany would not be in a position to launch another attack. But for us, the war would have been over

We would have had to come to terms, Undefeated. But really no longer a threat to Germany
 
No, what we had was a series of "Stop lines", They may not look like much, but they would have seriously bogged down any fast advance away from the coast.

Which were themselves a measure of desperation - we were building all kinds of improvised defences and weapons to oppose an invasion attempt due to the lack of a proper fortification system and it was only well into 1940 before significant supplies of rifles, submachineguns, etc. and ammo arrived from the US.

wikipedia said:
Emergency Coastal Batteries were constructed to protect ports and likely landing places. They were fitted with whatever guns were available, which mainly came from naval vessels scrapped since the end of the First World War. These included 6 inch (152 mm), 5.5 inch (140 mm), 4.7 inch (120 mm) and 4 inch (102 mm) guns. These had little ammunition, sometimes as few as ten rounds apiece.
 
Even with no RAF and no RN, the Germans would still have the enormous problem of pretty much no amphibious assault ships, and no realistic way of delivering large amounts of troops and material. How many of the flat bottomed river barges earmarked for the invasion would have sunk of their own accord in the channel. It was never realistic, the UK was probably exaggerating the risk to gain allies and to draw the US in to the war while using the threat to harden the population against hardship and to help productivity.
 
They started out with a massive technology head start, but Hitler had a hard-on for ever bigger and dafter machines and they kind of got bogged down in that. We caught them up somewhat and did them on numbers, but with someone in charge who wasn't a complete loon I think it could have gone on for much longer.
 
What would the world today have been like if Hitler hadn't started the war?

I think there are several scenarios flowing from that, depending on the circumstances.

1) Hitler in power but he didn't start a war. I think that's an impossible scenario. Massive expansion was the foundation of his position and that made war inevitable.

2) Hitler not in power but instead some other Nazi was in power. Himmler, perhaps. In short, someone else used the same way to obtain power. I think that's a possible scenario and I think the outcome would have been the same. It's commonly believed that Hitler was incompetent or even downright insane and made ludicrous mistakes that cost Germany the war, but I think that's wrong. I think a different Nazi in charge wouldn't have been more successful. Hitler's famous "mistakes" either weren't mistakes or weren't Hitler's. Operation Barbarossa, for example, was forced on the Nazis by an extremely inadequate supply of oil. It wasn't a mistake in itself. Some of the faults in the way it was done were a result of the German military and political infighting. Others were due to incorrect information about the USSR. If a different Nazi was in charge, those things would still have been true.

3) Nazi party never came to power in Germany. I think a likely result of that would be Germany becoming pseudo-communist and probably eventually a part of the USSR either by choice or by "liberation", i.e. conquest. I think that the expansion of the USSR would have continued. In this scenario, no other country would be on a war footing but the USSR would be a dictatorship geared towards conquest. I think all of Europe would have been "liberated" by the USSR and much of the rest of the world too.. That might well have been even worse than WW2.

[..]
The first question is could england have been invaded after the fall of france, in my opinion yes if the RAF was neutered. Some people claim it would be impossible because of the royal navy, but the royal navy in 1940 was not in a position to blockade the english channel, as an example when the dutch royal family was en route to england in a ship, it was all done hush hush, the navy were scared in the north sea of been sunk, not the actions of a dominant navy. A ship close by did in fact get sunk by some german subs. Also in 1940 anti sub tech was weak, so the germans e.g. could have made a path for the invasion force to cross with each side of the path flanked by subs waiting for approaching destroyers etc. and dive bombers as well on standby. Once on land beating a beaten down land army would have been easy. [..]

I disagree, even if the RAF completely disappeared somehow.

The Royal Navy vastly outnumbered the German navy in 1940. The mismatch was huge. The RN had types of ships that the kriegsmarine didn't even have at all, such as aircraft carriers. It had many more of every type of ship. Even just the British Home Fleet by itself outnumbered the entire kriegsmarine. It's true that the RN was reluctant to commit to a full scale naval war in the channel, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't or couldn't have done it.

u-boats were not really submarines as we understand them today. They were boats that could submerge (hence the name). They were far less capable than a true submarine. They were slow-moving when submerged. They couldn't attack while submerged. They couldn't communicate while submerged, so any kind of co-ordinated attack would have been impossible. They couldn't remain submerged for extended periods of time. Their biggest strength was stealth. Blockading the English channel with uboats, as you suggest, wouldn't have worked. They would have had to be on the surface quite a lot, i.e. just plain boats, in order to co-ordinate a blockade and in order to remain there for long enough. It's not a large area - they would be located and thus very vulnerable. It wasn't difficult to sink a u-boat if you knew where it was, which is why the main thrust of developments to counter the threat of u-boats focussed on locating them.

Amphibious invasion is always a bad idea and has been strenuously avoided throughout history, even in the days before guns and navies and air forces. Germany in 1940 had precisely zero ships designed for an amphibious invasion. None. Not a single one. There was no such thing. They also had no plan for an amphibious invasion of the UK. An amphibious invasion over infamously dangerous waters. Without even adequate troop transport ships. The thrown-together semi-plan involved river barges, some of which didn't even have working engines, to supplement the limited number of troop transport ships! Even if the RAF and the RN mysteriously disappeared, the invasion would have taken heavy losses due to natural conditions and accidents, without any enemy action at all.

But it would have been even worse than that because it would have been an opposed amphibious invasion and that's a whole new level of death. It was savagely bloody in the days of bows and spears and swords. With machine guns and artillery, it's a horror show. It's true that Britain was short of guns in 1940, but there were still quite a lot around.

But suppose that somehow the RN and the RAF disappeared and the Germans ate the losses due to natural conditions and accidents and somehow survived the opposed amphibious landing, what have they gained? A beachhead held by a small number of very lightly equipped soldiers. A beachhead on a very hostile island, facing a million soldiers (yes, there were a million soldiers in the UK at that time, albeit mostly barely trained) and tens of millions of civilians armed to varying extents. Oh, and tanks. With a supply line stretching over the sea that has already killed thousands of the invaders by itself, so not much hope there. The only possible chance of success would be a seize a working major port and use that to bring in supplies, far more soldiers and heavy equipment. Which Germany couldn't have done because they didn't have the ships available to do it. Also, every major port (and some not so major ports) in Britain that a German invasion might possibly have taken were prepped for destruction so even if the Germans did take them they wouldn't have had a working port. The issue of ports was so important that one of the things the Allies deemed necessary for their own amphibious invasion later on was for the invading force to build ports. Prefab ports ("Mulberry harbours")were invented for that purpose. Another thing needed for an amphibious invasion that Germany didn't have in 1940.

Shortly before then, Germany did an amphibious invasion of Norway. Norway didn't have a military navy or air force of any significance, so Germany had extreme naval and aerial superiority. Norway was taken by surprise, so there wasn't much in terms of shore defences and a properly prepared opposition to the landing. Even so, Germany took heavy losses in that attack.

You just don't do an amphibious invasion without overwhelming force, a good plan and specialised equipment. Even with all those things, it's still a very bloody affair. Look at Omaha beach for an example. Without them, it's madness.

The concern about a German invasion was real in 1940, but with hindsight it wasn't a significant threat. They couldn't have done it and even if they could have done it they couldn't have done it because they didn't have enough oil. Even that early on, Hitler and the better informed of his senior people knew that inadequate supplues of oil was a huge issue. Wasting any of it on trying to conquer Britain in 1940 would have been a very bad idea even if Germany had the plan and the equipment and the naval superiority and the air superiority that they needed and didn't have.
 
The Royal Navy vastly outnumbered the German navy in 1940. The mismatch was huge. The RN had types of ships that the kriegsmarine didn't even have at all, such as aircraft carriers. It had many more of every type of ship. Even just the British Home Fleet by itself outnumbered the entire kriegsmarine. It's true that the RN was reluctant to commit to a full scale naval war in the channel, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't or couldn't have done it.

It is largely irrelevant in a theoretical but fact based scenario where the Germans had gained significant air superiority after wiping out the RAF - a lot of historians make a mistake here as they use the basis that the German air forces lacked armour penetrating bombs and torpedoes (dropped from aircraft) that were effective against the higher end RN ships - while they weren't fully developed and put into use until around a year later when they started moving Junkers 87 and 88, etc. away from frontline use and into anti-shipping, etc. roles there is very little stopping them bringing that forward (it was more use case than technical developments that delayed them being put into use) if there had been a need to use their aerial superiority to control a portion of the Channel - another fallacy that historians, etc. often make is that they'd have needed to control the whole Channel and parts of the North Sea - but all they needed to do is use their air superiority to force the RN into standing off outside engagement range of an invasion corridor. They didn't need to defeat the RN only deny them the capacity to work within an area.

At the time the RN's carriers were largely equipped with WW1 era planes and other types of light bombers some more modern and not able to operate in skies controlled by the likes of 109s.

Agreed no one wants to do an opposed landing and the numbers needed on paper to make it a success are scary - with D-Day they managed it with a bit over 3:1 odds in Allied favour but a large part of that is because they were able to somewhat mislead the Germans as to where the landings would take place until they were actually happening - something that the Germans wouldn't have been able to do the other way around - ostensibly they'd have needed to commit the entire final strength from Operation Barbarossa to the job but then they'd have needed to spend the time to build specialised landing ships and widen the corridor to move that volume to an extent they'd struggle to maintain with what air superiority they could have mustered.

On the other hand in terms of the oil situation - an invasion like this would have pulled British forces away from the oil production in the Middle East allowing the Germans a much easier time to capture that though looking at the numbers it probably wouldn't have been enough to tip the balance as the amounts and quality available from that earlier in the war was a lot less than the amounts needed to keep the British war machine going later on when it was mostly sourced from the US.
 
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short term maybe, long term no, hitler hated the russians. sure they could have ground out a stalemate with england but give it a few years of having a safe stranglehold over europe and the nazi eyes would eventually turn east. the only reason they ever had a peace treaty was because they didn't want a war on 2 fronts (which considering was the downfall of germany in 2 world wars wasn't entirely stupid)

and of course lets not forget the original british battle plan- turtle up with the royal navy putting a stranglehold on europe whilst sucking the empire of resources to keep ourselves afloat.

now wether or not the russian bear could kill the eagle in a straight fight is a different story, but it would certainly break the backs of both nations leaving the germans having to try and maintain subjugation of a lot of angsty locals while britain sits just itching for a chance to finish the job (and if we're assuming a shaky peace treaty then britain would have had time to gather her strength).

and that's before we consider the long-term conscience of the german people when they found out the true horrors of the nazi genocide, lets not forget that they're not some alien race without feeling and are pretty decent people on the whole especially when they aren't pushed to the edge starving in a failed economy.
 
now wether or not the russian bear could kill the eagle in a straight fight is a different story, but it would certainly break the backs of both nations leaving the germans having to try and maintain subjugation of a lot of angsty locals while britain sits just itching for a chance to finish the job (and if we're assuming a shaky peace treaty then britain would have had time to gather her strength).

In a straight up fight (and assuming noting too incompetent command wise) without any external help/interference i.e. the intel provided to the Soviet Union and the convoys of military supplies, I don't think the Soviet Union would have won - the Germans were a highly organised fighting force able to move vast distances with logistics in tow rapidly - even with the problems they encountered there such as fuel and being over-extended at Dunkirk, etc. while the Soviet armies were much more scraped together. Ultimately I think the Soviet forces would have broken themselves time and time again on the Germans until exhausted - the big problem then for Germany though is how to control the country once they've won the military battles - the Russian, etc. spirit isn't broken that easily and it's a vast area of land with a spread out and diverse population.
 
I think the Germans would have just kept the pressure up until the soviets ran out of supplies and ammo (and men to actually fight). They weren't far off.

I doubt Hitler cared about controlling them, he probably would have killed them all.
 
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It's hard to see how Germany could have won WW2 they just didn't have enough oil supply to keep their mechanized units going, the north and centre army groups all but halted their operations just so the southern army group could try and capture Stalingrad.
 
Love discussions like this.

I am of the belief Germany could have won a significant victory *if* they acted fast enough, with several caveats. They never intended to fight Britain - and were hoping for an armstice after Poland. Hitler was somewhat surprised when Britain guaranteed Poland, thus leading to a larger, prolonged European War.

Germany used modern tactics and modern warfare. Blitzkrieg. Independent Armoured divisions were to spearhead the attacks and were followed up by the infantry. France was of the belief that it's armoured units were best supporting the infantry and were dispersed accordingly. There was a lack of coordination within the French divisions that led to a catastropic failure of command. They were completely outclassed.

It only became a World War when Japan declared on the US, thus bringing the sleeping giant into the Allies. At this point even the Japanese knew that unless they could invade Hawaii that the war was more or less over for them. They acted quickly initially but failed to destroy the Pacific Fleet cariers. With American naval supremacy the Japanese were fighting defensively thereafter.

The war soon became an act of attrition for all sides.

It's hard to see how Germany could have won WW2 they just didn't have enough oil supply to keep their mechanized units going, the north and centre army groups all but halted their operations just so the southern army group could try and capture Stalingrad.

Almost 50% of Germany's oil was synthetic, manufactured in the homeland and elsewhere. The rest was bought in from Romania and other Axis partners. There was plenty of oil in the early war, which is when it could and should have been won. As you say the problem stemmed from Hitler taking command of his armies rather than letting his more competent Generals control the battlefield. He became obssessed with the big Russian cities to the extent he neglected the other fronts.
 
Let's be honest, Germany won in the long run and Britain lost everything. Should never have joined the war.

RIP to the greatest empire the world had ever seen. :(
 
No, what we had was a series of "Stop lines", They may not look like much, but they would have seriously bogged down any fast advance away from the coast.

Ant is all about time and supply. The invading forces would have been cut off after week/10 days by the Royal navy (No doubt at great cost!) and bled dry of supplies.
why would they not just airdrop them, if the RAF had been taken out?
 
It had already been a World War for 2.5 years at that point (Canada declared on Germany a week after they invaded Poland).

Interesting point. I thought it would be a World War once a number of major factions were involved rather than just geographic location. Depends how you look at it I suppose.
 
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