Do I have to bake a cake for a gay couple?

How many gay people do you think there are?

Pretty much anywhere outside of a massive town a gay only establishment would fail and that's assuming many would out themselves by going in the first place

Who’s talking about gay only?

I’m saying no discrimination as opposed to any at all.

Capitalism exists and I’m just telling you how it works.

Successful business don’t discriminate on customers. Ones that do, fail due to the success of ones that don’t.
 
In a similar vain to "capitalism sorting it out", a year or two ago a dutch mens clothing brand (can't remember the name) did their spring/summer catalogue and being the all inclusive company they were threw in some gay "scenes" (basically men kissing) to make them more appealing to the gay man market.

Within a week their instagram account had lost something like 20% of their followers. Straight men have a manly heterosexual image to maintain!
 
I always thought a business could refuse custom to anyone they like but they can't refuse custom purely based on race, sexual orientation, gender etc.

So "I'm not serving you because you are gay" = wrong and potential legal action but "I'm sorry we are really busy and can't take any more orders at the moment" = ok.

Now if they then serve someone straight after then the previous customer will rightly be suspicious but then nightclubs always turn away groups of lads (especially black groups) and then let others in and while I remember one news story about people moaning I haven't seen any big change in that behaviour.

All that said in this day and age refusing business on outdated personal beliefs won't get you very far and social media can quickly kill off a small business if enough people get behind it.
 
Who’s talking about gay only?

I’m saying no discrimination as opposed to any at all.

Capitalism exists and I’m just telling you how it works.

Successful business don’t discriminate on customers. Ones that do, fail due to the success of ones that don’t.


You keep saying "this is how it works" despite the huge raft of historical evidence that shows that's not how it works.

Hence the laws we have today.

Capitalism instantly results in the 90% majority dictating the market.

If the community is racist and says "hey Mr baker if you serve blacks we won't come here" Mr baker won't be serving the small number of blacks because he'd lose the massive number of whites.

Successful business discriminated for centuries untill they were forced not to
 
I can’t believe people are questioning something that actually happens.

When I talk about capitalism it’s not a ideology or a theory. It’s actually how this country works right now.

Except that's how the country used to work u till we brought in antidiscrimination laws.


People are questioning you because it's the oposite of what happens ed before we had anti discrimination laws.


No dogs
No blacks
No irish
 
Such nonsense.

The most successful businesses have never discriminated against their customers. The one who did weren’t as successful. This is fact, not opinion.

Anti discrimination laws have their purpose, significantly affecting the market is definitely not one.

If you have anything to back up what you’re saying I’m happy to read it. If not I’ll just stick to believing in the consensus of economy.
 
If they want to or not is upto the manager of said business.
but in this day and age SJW will make a mountain out of a mole hill and it can have a huge impact on you're business.
 
How many gay people do you think there are?

Pretty much anywhere outside of a massive town a gay only establishment would fail and that's assuming many would out themselves by going in the first place
I'd imagine its only a small minority of bakeries that refuse to make gay cakes.

are they really refusing to do business with these people?

they won't make a gay cake but would they sell them a loaf of bread?

Don't see the big deal with someone not wanting to do something for their beliefs.

can I go to a bakery and sue them if they won't make me a satan cake?
 
In a similar vain to "capitalism sorting it out", a year or two ago a dutch mens clothing brand (can't remember the name) did their spring/summer catalogue and being the all inclusive company they were threw in some gay "scenes" (basically men kissing) to make them more appealing to the gay man market.

Within a week their instagram account had lost something like 20% of their followers. Straight men have a manly heterosexual image to maintain!

Rightly so too. I'm sick of lifestyles being thrust upon me for the sake of edgy marketing. I'd be the same if it was a m and f kissing. Wtf has a sexual relationship goto do with buying a t-shirt?
 
Some of this reminds me of a Meme released by a disability support group on Facebook. It read:

Stop discriminating people with special needs.

Obviously it's a perfect example of an oxymoron. The definition of discriminating, "to draw on or highlight differences within a set", is also the core meaning of the term "special". In other words if people have "special needs" then you are in fact discriminating by stating they have "special" needs.

What I'm getting at is that the word "discriminate" has been hijacked by modern pop-culture langauge to mean "treating people badly based on some attribute", which is actually very little to do with the word "discriminate". The statement "blacks are being treated unfairly" is in itself discrimination. A lot of anti-discrimination laws are actually discrimination in themselves. Consider the fair employment requirements for areas such as Northern Ireland where if you require X% of catholics and you are under, you need to employee a catholic over a potentially better protestant candidate or face penalty. Some anti-sexism initiatives do the same. "Women in IT", "Women for this or that"... are highly sexist. The concept is meant as positive discrimination but it's still discrimination.

Similarly, is it legal to be racist? Of course it is. For it not to be legal would require a way to do psychological profiling of people and locking them up if their showed a high tendency toward racism. Thankfully we cannot, yet, make "feeling", "emotion", "thought" or "fantasy" a crime. Further it is core basic human nature to be racist. It is a core, primal, instinctive behaviour. "One of us or one of them?", "Friend or foe?". These are mechanisms that exist well below cognitive thought in our brains. We all discriminate and we all have prejudices. The later take a shorter time to form in your brain than a thought can <20ms. "First impressions"

The key difference is that we humans have higher brain functions which can then over-rule are most basic instincts and that miss treating, excluding or negatively discriminating people based on your prejudices is where the legality risk lies. It would be fairer to just say that being nasty to one another for any reason is wrong and remove the 'ists' completely.

But can we negatively discriminate against criminals? Rapists? Pedos? Ex-cons? People on drugs? Drunk people? Loud people? Stupid people? Where does the line lie? Will we come to a time when an employer is not allowed to discriminate by not employing someone because their tested-in-context intelligence is below what the job requires?

In the bakery case, I am still a bit on the fence. In one hand I can see it is wrong to reject a customer request simply because they are gay, but at the same time I would feel it would be wrong to force businesses to accept business they don't want, regardless of reason. Public services and businesses with public service licenses would be different, but surely businesses should be free to take or not take business for any reason? Other wise it's forced against their will, verging on slavery. Though they do have the option to stop trading.

Overall we are on a neo-liberalism spiralling slope with an entire generation growing up taking their morals from this spiral. Trying to please everyone and ending up pleasing nobody and making a lot more hatred and intolerance in society in the long run. If you fit in the narrow road of what facebook/twitter/this morning/jerry springer says is acceptable then you are fine. Step one foot out of it and you are ridiculed and osterized. Almost like a global cult.

If whatever someone does, does not hurt or hinder someone else's ability to do what they want, then I'm fine with it. Society only needs to intervene when people have conflicting ambitions. So called the "Do no harm" principle.
 
can I go to a bakery and sue them if they won't make me a satan cake?

No, because you weren't born believing in Satan and you can quite easily not believe in Satan.

A gay person can't stop being attracted to people of the same sex (There is a huge amount of scientific evidence that point to genetics/biology being major factors in someone being a homosexual), and a black person can't stop being black.
 
I suppose the main problem is - should people be forced to undertake a service they don't want to, for any reason - likewise if they're racist, should they be punished, or forced to bake a wedding cake for a black couple?

Although that may seem to be the issue, I don't think it is. I think what we are really talking about here is ~ should companies be allowed to say WHY they do not want your business? I mean they can just refuse to serve you without giving a reason, but the moment they make a statement as to WHY then they are effectively making a public speech. It's the same with us all, we are all entitled to our opinions, but we are not entitled to airing those opinions in a public place if they break certain rules. And I think that is perfectly correct. These types of rules may seem extreme but they are put in place to tackle specific problems. I mean it's pretty simple really, keep your opinions to yourself!
 
No, because you weren't born believing in Satan and you can quite easily not believe in Satan.

A gay person can't stop being attracted to people of the same sex (There is a huge amount of scientific evidence that point to genetics/biology being major factors in someone being a homosexual), and a black person can't stop being black.
There is no irrefutable scientific proof that it is hardwired.
 
Sorry I need to learn to read..

My take on things like gay clubs that host activities only for gays, is that it's creating an 'aggro free' environment, in the sense you don't have to worry about being yourself with your partner around other people, or have to worry about receiving abuse. Trust me - if you're gay and you walk through the high street of pretty much most towns whilst holding hands, with the exception of Brighton, London and maybe Leeds or Edinburgh, you're going to get some **** and lots of funny looks.

.

Leeds over Manchester? Surely Manchester is the queen of the North!
 
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