Boris and the burka

KillBoY_UK said:
Indeed, dress modestly and "has to wear a burka" are two very different things, one is very vague and one is very clear.
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That's what extremists do, take everything to the extreme. It's the same sort of people interperating the Koran as a call to arms against unbelievers when the majority of the Muslim population live peacefully and integrate into communities. The extremist minority are making conditions worse for the sensible majority and society as a whole.
 
mmj_uk said:
That's what extremists do, take everything to the extreme. It's the same sort of people interperating the Koran as a call to arms against unbelievers when the majority of the Muslim population live peacefully and integrate into communities. The extremist minority are making conditions worse for the sensible majority and society as a whole.
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unfortunately there is a very large amount of people who follow an extreme interpretation of Islam, millions in fact due to countries like Saudi Arabia etc
 
Love how this thread has gone exactly the same way as all these do on here, ie no mention of Boris for a page and all debate about extremist numbers etc. The Burka v's Niqab confusion is brilliant at least understand what you are offended by before being offended I have only ever seen a handful of Burka's (in Birmingham 10 years ago) I've never seen a single one in ten years in Sheffield a city with a sizeable Muslim population.

Regardless of who he said it about Boris's comments were ill advised at best and downright stupid and inflammatory at worst he should simply man up and apologise. I think everyone can agree there is a place for a sensible debate about these things but the way to kick it off is not to through some mindless insults at people and then laugh and pretend it's ok because you're a big harmless floppy haired idiot looking after the liberal view point.
 
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a1ex2001 said:
Love how this thread has gone exactly the same way as all these do on here, ie no mention of Boris for a page and all debate about extremist numbers etc.
Regardless of who he said it about Boris's comments were ill advised at best and downright stupid and inflammatory at worst he should simply man up and apologise I think everyone can agree there is a place for a sensible debate about these things but the way to kick it off is not to through some mindless insults at people and then laugh and pretend it's ok because you're a big harmless floppy haired idiot looking after the liberal view point.
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Ok, lets remember specifically what he said:

What did Boris Johnson say?
The column was intended to be a comment on the introduction of a burka ban in Denmark.

He said he felt "fully entitled" to expect women to remove face coverings when talking to him at his MP surgery, and schools and universities should be able to do the same if a student "turns up... looking like a bank robber".

He said: “If you tell me that the burka is oppressive, then I am with you.

"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.

"I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."

He wrote that Muslim women who wear burkas look like “letter boxes” or “bank robbers”

He said businesses and government agencies should be able to "enforce a dress code" that allowed them to see customers' faces.

But he said: "Such restrictions are not quite the same as telling a free-born adult woman what she may or may not wear, in a public place, when she is simply minding her own business."

He said a total ban on face-covering veils would give a boost to radicals who said there was a "clash of civilisations" between Islam and the West and could lead to "a general crackdown on any public symbols of religious affiliation".
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All seems quite a reasonable discourse to me. He was quite mild in his approach, and it is a reasoned approach to the potential ban on BURKA, not the niqab... Although there may be some crossover

*edit* I was wrong, sorry, the Denmark ban was specific to both the Burka and Niqab.
 
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a1ex2001 said:
Love how this thread has gone exactly the same way as all these do on here, ie no mention of Boris for a page and all debate about extremist numbers etc. The Burka v's Niqab confusion is brilliant at least understand what you are offended by before being offended I have only ever seen a handful of Burka's (in Birmingham 10 years ago) I've never seen a single one in ten years in Sheffield a city with a sizeable Muslim population.

Regardless of who he said it about Boris's comments were ill advised at best and downright stupid and inflammatory at worst he should simply man up and apologise. I think everyone can agree there is a place for a sensible debate about these things but the way to kick it off is not to through some mindless insults at people and then laugh and pretend it's ok because you're a big harmless floppy haired idiot looking after the liberal view point.
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Or maybe it was a joke/quip, are politicians not allowed to make those? Do they have to be straight laced incredibly boring robots?

Get a grip, any joke about religions is offensive to adherents of that religion. It doesn't mean we should stop making them. He was ridiculing something, which in the 21st century is, worthy of ridicule using humorous metaphor. It's not worthy of apology.

Also his article was entirely reasonable. Stop pretending to be offended on the behalf of others.
 
a1ex2001 said:
Love how this thread has gone exactly the same way as all these do on here, ie no mention of Boris for a page and all debate about extremist numbers etc. The Burka v's Niqab confusion is brilliant at least understand what you are offended by before being offended I have only ever seen a handful of Burka's (in Birmingham 10 years ago) I've never seen a single one in ten years in Sheffield a city with a sizeable Muslim population.

Regardless of who he said it about Boris's comments were ill advised at best and downright stupid and inflammatory at worst he should simply man up and apologise I think everyone can agree there is a place for a sensible debate about these things but the way to kick it off is not to through some mindless insults at people and then laugh and pretend it's ok because you're a big harmless floppy haired idiot looking after the liberal view point.
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Boris's comments could be considering stupid/inflammatory but to me its no more so than say all the comments about his silly hair but that's fair game to criticise.
 
Mason- said:
Or maybe it was a joke/quip, are politicians not allowed to make those? Do they have to be straight laced incredibly boring robots?

Get a grip, any joke about religions is offensive to adherents of that religion. It doesn't mean we should stop making them. He was ridiculing something, which in the 21st century is, worthy of ridicule using humorous metaphor. It's not worthy of apology.

Also his article was entirely reasonable. Stop pretending to be offended on the behalf of others.
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Where did I say I was offended, I'm not expecting him to apologise to me but to those who he has pointlessly upset, yes debate the burka and other full face veils but don't throw in a few petty names along the way it is unnecessary and demeaning of a man who claims to want to lead our country? I just think that is is not sensible for a man who purports to want to lead our country to make ill considered remarks that he knows will be inflammatory who ever they are about.
 
a1ex2001 said:
Where did I say I was offended, I'm not expecting him to apologise to me but to those who he has pointlessly upset, yes debate the burka and other full face veils but don't throw in a few petty names along the way it is unnecessary and demeaning of a man who claims to want to lead our country? I just think that is is not sensible for a man who purports to want to lead our country to make ill considered remarks that he knows will be inflammatory who ever they are about.
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I think having a holier than thou attitude doesn't particularly go down well with the public.

And do you really think they were ill-considered? BoJo is no idiot, everything he does is very considered. This stir is probably exactly what he wanted.

The comments, followed by radio silence, followed by ruffled hair offering reporters a cup of tea. It's all contrived, it's classic Boris.
 
a1ex2001 said:
Where did I say I was offended, I'm not expecting him to apologise to me but to those who he has pointlessly upset, yes debate the burka and other full face veils but don't throw in a few petty names along the way it is unnecessary and demeaning of a man who claims to want to lead our country? I just think that is is not sensible for a man who purports to want to lead our country to make ill considered remarks that he knows will be inflammatory who ever they are about.
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Do you also expect everyone else in the public spotlight (e.g. comedians) to apologise for 'jokes' about how other groups dress? Or is it only applicable to Muslims?
 
enkoda said:
Do you also expect everyone else in the public spotlight (e.g. comedians) to apologise for 'jokes' about how other groups dress? Or is it only applicable to Muslims?
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Don't think he's making that point. I think he's making the point that politicians should behave in a different manner. And my counter is to say that, him not acting how a politician should or saying what a politician should is exactly why he's popular. And most importantly, he knows it.
 
KillBoY_UK said:
Boris's comments could be considering stupid/inflammatory
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Not really, the only reason anyone would take offense at his comments is if they were looking for something to take offense at and figured they could grab some juicy attention by being offended at Boris.

The reason this has blown up so much is because most of the offense addicts read some tabloid summaries (or left wing Facebook articles) on Boris article and feigned outrage at summaries/contextless statements he never made, now to avoid losing face they're doubling down in the hope nobody will call them on it because it's more fun to bash Boris.

It's reached a crazy level of stupidity when the PM is demanding a member of her party apologize for a comment he never made lol.
 
Malt_Vinegar said:
*edit* I was wrong, sorry, the Denmark ban was specific to both the Burka and Niqab.
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I guess it isn't surprising that they'd ban both if they were going to have a ban, aside from the eyes it is the same issue.

You do raise a good point re: terminology though they do seem to be (incorrectly) used interchangeably all over the media, for example this BBC3 clip erroneously refers to burkas when everyone featured wears a niqab and one girl wears a hijab:

 
Brendan O'Neill's latest column in The Spectator sums up my thoughts too, don't particularly care for the labour anti-semitism parts at the end though:

Brendan O'Neill - Spectator said:
The Muslim Council of Britain wants Theresa May to subject Boris to a ‘full disciplinary inquiry’ over his comments on the niqab and burqa. Let’s call this by its true name: an inquisition. This inquiry would be a 21st-century inquisition of a man simply for speaking ill of a religious practice. May must resist this borderline medieval demand that she punish a member of her party for expressing a ‘blasphemous’ thought. She must put aside her Borisphobia and stand up for freedom of conscience against the inquisitorial hysteria that has greeted Boris’s remarks.

Burqagate has been mad from the get-go. Reading some of the coverage of Boris’s Daily Telegraph column you could be forgiven for thinking he had called for a pogrom against Muslims and even against all people of colour. He has been denounced as a racist, a fascist, and of course an Islamophobe: anyone who raises even the slightest question about Koranic ideology or Islamic dress now runs the risk of being branded a ‘phobe’, just as those who queried the Bible or Christ in the past would be denounced as heretics. The bizarre return of blasphemy law.

But in truth, Boris said nothing racist. He didn’t mention people of colour or any ethnic group. He didn’t even call for intolerance against women who wear the niqab or burka. in fact he defended their rights. He said no ‘free-born adult woman’ should be told what she may and may not wear in public. That someone can be written off as ‘racist’ despite not saying anything racist, and despite writing in defence of the rights of a minority group, confirms how emptied of meaning the word racist has become. It now means nothing more than ‘bad person’; person we don’t like; person we wish to harry and shame out of public life by attaching to him the reputation-destroying brand of racist. Such a cynical misuse of language.

But the craziness of burqagate has moved up a notch with the demands for a full-scale inquiry. ‘No one should be allowed to victimise minorities with impunity’, says the Muslim Council’s letter to the Conservative Party, sent today. Boris didn’t victimise any minority. He defended their rights while also criticising the choices they make. Is criticism of minority practices a thoughtcrime now? Does this mean we cannot criticise the Ultra Orthodox Jewish sect, Belz, which has members in London, and which forbids its female members from driving? Can we not criticise Jehovah’s Witnesses over their attitude to blood transfusions? Would these criticisms be prejudice too? Belzphobia, perhaps? Anti-Jehovah’s hate speech? Or is it only Islamic practices we can’t question?

The truth is Boris did not victimise anyone; he just questioned what some people choose to do. What the MCB is really saying is: ‘You cannot criticise Islamic ideas without impunity.’ You cannot question certain Islamic practices and expect to get away with it. Such a stern, censorious stipulation has no place in a 21st-century pluralist society. In this society, everyone must have freedom of religion, and everyone else must have the freedom to mock religion. If Boris is dragged into an inquiry and made to answer for his comments on Islam, it will be a dark day for freedom of conscience in this country.

As to those comparing Boris’s comments to some of the anti-Semitic comments made by elements within the Labour Party — please, you’re embarrassing yourselves. You cannot compare anti-Semitism, which is the racial hatred of an entire people, with public criticism of one small and actually quite contested aspect of the religion of Islam. That is like comparing the white supremacist who thinks all black people are inferior with a cultural critic who simply doesn’t like the use of the N-word in gangsta rap. The former is racism, the second is criticism. As it is between Corbynista anti-Semitism and Boris’s comments on the niqab: the former has the whiff of racial hatred, the latter is perfectly legitimate commentary on a religious practice.

There should be no inquiry into what Boris said. There should be no sanction against him, no punishment, no more hounding. Because if we are not free to question religion, then what has been the point of the past 500 years of struggle for the freedom of thought, the freedom of speech, and the freedom to disbelieve in gods and devils and anything else we judge to be a bit backward?
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https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/boris-johnson-is-a-victim-of-the-modern-inquisition/
 
So we can question religion but not a government's actions against occupied people and might get labelled antisemitic if you do? Whilst not racist, does his past actions not suggest something?
 
a1ex2001 said:
Where did I say I was offended, I'm not expecting him to apologise to me but to those who he has pointlessly upset, yes debate the burka and other full face veils but don't throw in a few petty names along the way it is unnecessary and demeaning of a man who claims to want to lead our country? I just think that is is not sensible for a man who purports to want to lead our country to make ill considered remarks that he knows will be inflammatory who ever they are about.
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Have you never seen politicians in the house of commons all they do is make inflammatory remarks at each other
 
Brendan O'Neill. The Spectator said:
This inquiry would be a 21st-century inquisition of a man simply for speaking ill of a religious practice.
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No it wouldn't.
It would be an inquiry into whether or not an untrustworthy Brexiteer fantasist should be allowed to ridicule and encourage hatred of a particular group of people.
 
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