excluded based on gender...... W series

It really does seem like a box ticking exercise, and I'm surprised at some of those involved in it. Who exactly is this series going to appeal to? I can't work out anyone half decent who would want to drive in the series, who would want to sponsor it and certainly can't think of anyone who would want to watch it apart from maybe once out of morbid curiosity.

The issue needs to be tackled at a grass roots level, and until more women make a successful in a 'real' series and become a role model that is going to be a pretty hard sell. At least IndyCar has had some half decent female drivers, in fact Pippa Mann has been very outspoken about how she hates the idea of this.

 
fanstastic point Angilion, she was probably one of the best female racing/rally drivers to have been..... ever.

and she was at the sharp end proper. Group B was one of the most demanding and gruelling series out there not to mention more dangerous than anything that's came since.

current F1 stars look like utter Pansys next to the heroes of Group B

for those not of an age to be familiar with Group B


Ugh...they've put music over the real sounds.

I think that one of the things she said in that second video is a good summary of her approach to rallying and something that was both a strength and a weakness "...give everything I have inside to try to rally, to try to go flat out". She was utterly committed - if she entered a race, she was going to be racing every metre as fast as possible, flat out at every available opportunity. Maybe the most telling example was after she retired and did the Pike's Peak hillclimb. She'd been told, by people who knew what they were doing, that one of the bends near the top was a bit deceptive and it was necessary to lift off to get around it. She took it flat out anyway and said afterwards that for a second or two she thought she was going to go off the road. Off the road most of the way up a mountain, where "going off the road" meant "going off the mountain and plummeting down to almost certain death". And she still didn't lift. Flat out at every available opportunity. The reason why I think that attitude was also a weakness was that I think she was sometimes too bold for the cars of the day. Group B cars were not really very good in many ways. Huge power, but not so good in every other way. She broke cars quite a bit, pushing them a bit too much. I think she would have done better if she could have competed in modern rally cars, as they're much more robust than Group B cars were.

Another video with music, but it has some onboard footage and I think it shows the biggest problem with Group B - crowd control. This wasn't the worst example, not by a long chalk. You could have a crowd of spectators in the middle of the track, running aside a fraction of a second in front of you. Michelle Mouton once commented that it was necessary to think of them as trees, i.e. as obstacles and not as people, or else you wouldn't be able to race.


No music and yet more of the "Why the hell are there people on the track during the race?" problem. The noise of the later model Quattro is what I most remember. It crafted an image in my mind of a giant budgie riding a giant and very angry bear. I had no idea what noise an angry bear makes (and still don't), but the potency and visceral, muscular physicality of the sound made me think of a giant bear.


Mental time. I suspect the FIA greviously underestimated what engineers could do with a clean slate to custom-make a rally car from scratch without any consideration of a commercially viable road version. Or what drivers with a great deal of skill and courage would be eager to drive on tracks designed for cars with less than a quarter of the power.
 
[..]
The issue needs to be tackled at a grass roots level, and until more women make a successful in a 'real' series and become a role model that is going to be a pretty hard sell. [..]

I think that's a more fundamental problem that should be tackled but is instead constantly being made worse by devoted sexists. Mostly feminists of course, but not only them. Other sexists too. Why should it be considered necessary to treat a person's sex as their identity? Why is the idea that "they're all the same" still being promoted as not just a good idea but the only idea? The idea that a role model has to be the same sex is a direct result of that way of thinking. Not the only result of it, but a result of it.

If a child wants to be a racing driver, the relevant factor in a role model is being a racing driver. Because the child wants to be a racing driver. Really, this should be so obvious it doesn't need saying. But it does because of group identity politics, the modern dressing up of the age old idea that "they're all the same".
 
I think the main reason there aren't many female race drivers is because there isn't many women that want to be race drivers. So the one woman every so often that gets through is probably the correct fraction based on the number of women who tried.

I don't really see a problem of having the races if one group dominates the majority of a sport. But I don't think it will have the desired affect of changing the outcome i.e. getting more women in to the top flight of racing, because they are racing against other female racers that at the moment aren't that good either. To become better you have to learn from people better than you, unless you have a natural talent.

It reminds me of the similar situation in Snooker. I think there as been a couple of female snooker players played in the top tournaments on tv. But its an extremely rare sight. But I think its just down to culture and nature that 99.9% of women don't find playing snooker a useful way to spend their time.
 
To become better you have to learn from people better than you, unless you have a natural talent.

Unfortunately that line of thinking seems to have been lost on many people. They just will not accept that they aren't good enough and want something handed to them :/
 
I can't wait until we have women and men racing in F1 together. I reckon it will take all of half a lap before people are saying that the men are bullying the women or they are being sexist by aggressively overtaking someone.

Honestly, if they want to do this then go ahead. Perhaps it will work out but I am almost certain it won't. There are almost no sports that women can compete on an even playing field to men. Thats why we separate men and womens sport in any sport that has a physical component. The top women in sport might be able to beat 99% of men but that 1% of men will always be better than 100% of women.

So we're saying women are too fragile for F1?

The question is whether women can handle the physical demands of the sport whilst staying 100% focussed for the whole race. Few F1 drivers can do it.
 
It's a great opportunity for them, good luck to them I say. More seat options for promising women drivers, once they're in the car who can tell whether it's a male or female driver anyhow. Let them showcase their abilities and then see how the first champion gets on afterwards, then we'll know for certain where they stand. Jamie Chadwick is up for it, British Gt4 champion and she's just won an F3 race, she looks quite promising as future star, surely that's who it's aimed at?
 
What happens if the champion in this series gets a high profile drive alongside men and then fails badly? It could be quite damaging for anyone else competing in the championship wanting to race alongside men.
 
What happens if the champion in this series gets a high profile drive alongside men and then fails badly? It could be quite damaging for anyone else competing in the championship wanting to race alongside men.
Well if that happens, it highlights the problem with this whole idea; beating second rate competition is meaningless.

That scenario wouldn't happen anyway, as this championship isn't even anywhere near the level required to get a 'high profile' drive, nor is the prize big enough to pay for that seat. It'd be more of a stepping stone to a national F3/F4 championship at best, just like karting is already.
 
i wont rest untill F1 is equal for everyone, therefor every race should have a man, a woman, a transgerder man, a transgender woman, a dwarf, a 7ft person, and someone who identifies as an attack helicopter
 
Well if that happens, it highlights the problem with this whole idea; beating second rate competition is meaningless.

That scenario wouldn't happen anyway, as this championship isn't even anywhere near the level required to get a 'high profile' drive, nor is the prize big enough to pay for that seat. It'd be more of a stepping stone to a national F3/F4 championship at best, just like karting is already.

From the look of the promo material the car looks extremely similar to the one used in British F3 so I think it might even be the same chassis.
 
i wont rest untill F1 is equal for everyone, therefor every race should have a man, a woman, a transgerder man, a transgender woman, a dwarf, a 7ft person, and someone who identifies as an attack helicopter

You joke, but once again US Motorsport has been rather ahead of the curve there - Rico Abreu was born with achondroplasia, and stands at 4ft4 tall. But he was able to race and win in USAC Sprint and Midget cars, won a race in the NASCAR K&N Pro Series, and raced a few seasons in the NASCAR Truck series before sponsorship issues intervened. But he's back racing and winning in Sprint Cars again.

K5SqhIx.jpg
 
It's a great opportunity for them, good luck to them I say. More seat options for promising women drivers, once they're in the car who can tell whether it's a male or female driver anyhow. [..]

Considering that the whole point of it is to deny opportunities to people solely because they're the "wrong" sex, it's extremely easy to tell whether the driver is male or female. They're all female, since that's the whole point of it.

If someone did a "No Jews Allowed" racing championship that existed specifically and solely for the purpose of excluding Jews, could you tell whether or not a driver in that championship was Jewish?
If someone did a "No women allowed" racing championship that existed specifically and solely for the purpose of excluding women, could you tell whether or not a driver in that championship was a woman?

Why do you think it's a good thing to deny promising drivers a seat solely because of their sex?
 
I do love F1 , and I have no problem with this approach. There is a huge pyramid in motor sport, starting with karts (and Ginetta type series) where the great majority of the intake is male. Given there are few spots at the top, even if there is zero bias, the likelihood of a woman making it given the low starting numbers is very very low given the impact of luck and money on the path up the pyramid. Even when you get there, capability is no guarantee of success (just ask Esteban Ocon, who despite having a good couple of seasons looks like he's not got a seat for next season). I see this as bringing an alternative route a little way up the pyramid for women who will then have to duke it out with everyone else in GP3 and F2 (and sports car series etc).

The best will still rise to the top, and maybe the women from this series will rise higher at the expense of men who don't have that route, but given F1 is about entertainment and attracting viewers and people to races, I can see why they want to mix things up a bit to keep the punters interested.
 
Considering that the whole point of it is to deny opportunities to people solely because they're the "wrong" sex, it's extremely easy to tell whether the driver is male or female. They're all female, since that's the whole point of it.

If someone did a "No Jews Allowed" racing championship that existed specifically and solely for the purpose of excluding Jews, could you tell whether or not a driver in that championship was Jewish?
If someone did a "No women allowed" racing championship that existed specifically and solely for the purpose of excluding women, could you tell whether or not a driver in that championship was a woman?

Why do you think it's a good thing to deny promising drivers a seat solely because of their sex?

But it doesn't really deny opportunity to male drivers, if anything it opens more seats to everyone. It's a new series so majority of the female drivers will be moving across from existing series thus opening their current seats to new drivers (most likely male).
 
But it doesn't really deny opportunity to male drivers, if anything it opens more seats to everyone. It's a new series so majority of the female drivers will be moving across from existing series thus opening their current seats to new drivers (most likely male).

It's a series that exists solely for the purpose of denying opportunities to male drivers. To claim that "it doesn't really deny opportunity to male drivers" is nonsensical.

If there was a new series that female drivers were utterly forbidden to compete in and that was the sole point of the series, would you argue that "it doesn't really deny opportunity to female drivers"?
If there was a new series that "black" drivers were utterly forbidden to compete in and that was the sole point of the series, would you argue that "it doesn't really deny opportunity to black drivers"?

Etc.

Being fashionable doesn't make a particular strain of irrational prejudice and discrimination less irrationally prejudiced and discriminatory.

And no, the majority of the female drivers will not be moving across from existing series. None of the drivers who are able to compete in the real competitions will want to compete in this special girls-only series unless they're so sexist they like the idea of excluding men solely for the purpose of doing so. Most of the drivers in this special girls-only series will be those who can't compete in the real competitions (either through lack of skill or lack of money or both). But that's a relatively minor point. The major point is the question of whether or not it's a good thing to deny people opportunities solely because of their sex. I think it's a bad thing. You think it's a good thing.
 
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