The Indoor Riding/ Zwift/ TrainerRoad etc. Thread

Soldato
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Tried my first Zwift race last night. Based on the suggested W/Kg ranges, I chose a 'C' race and got absolutely owned. My FTP is about 250 which puts me at about 2.9W/kg which was near the top of the range, yet I was having to push 350W just to keep up with the pack at times. I ended up beasting myself in Z5 for about 25 minutes and then curling up in a ball on the floor. I set a new FTP for myself though so at least that's something!

Edit: All the readings are from my Garmin Vector 3 pedals, so I'm confident in the numbers they're putting out.
 
Soldato
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Tried my first Zwift race last night. Based on the suggested W/Kg ranges, I chose a 'C' race and got absolutely owned. My FTP is about 250 which puts me at about 2.9W/kg which was near the top of the range, yet I was having to push 350W just to keep up with the pack at times. I ended up beasting myself in Z5 for about 25 minutes and then curling up in a ball on the floor. I set a new FTP for myself though so at least that's something!

Edit: All the readings are from my Garmin Vector 3 pedals, so I'm confident in the numbers they're putting out.

You have to factor in that is an average power during the race.

I did a C grade earlier this week on the hilly wattopia course. The short climb I averaged almost 5wkg for 2 minutes to stay with the front bunch.

However going down the other side you can sit in the group and do 2-2.5wkg and recover which brings that average right down.

It’s not quite the same as riding on the road, but if you haven’t done anything similar before you have to get used to a short 30 second to 2 minute hard effort at above threshold power.

It usually kicks off on the small hills or rollers as that’s where more of a difference can be made, on the flat it’s easier to sit on and harder to get and hold a gap.
 
Soldato
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There must be some wizardry involved to Zwift racing.

Regularly pushing over the 5w/kg average and finishing behind lads pushing low 4's. In recent weeks it seems to be worse, either w/kg has been nerfed in favour of pure watts or the drafting advantage is just silly.

450-500watts up short climbs and choppers are actually gapping me half the time.

5w/kg average got me 12th place the other day in a nothing "race". Pushing 6w/kg on the front and lad behind doing 3.8 is sitting on quite the thing. Stupid.

It forces a nice workout though which is the thing I am after. But the competitive streak in me cannot just ignore the fact it's a bit knackered in reality. As much as I don't want to care or complain, I cannot help it.
 
Soldato
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First Zwift race in a while. Have some work to do!
Same! Did a 2 lap London flat last Sunday and got utterly destroyed! Really busy race for some reason?! 99 finishers.

https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=112923

Got myself nearly blown up after the start as although I'd had a longer than usual warm up I'd done quite easy/paced hills for it rather than any intensity. Eased back to the main B/C chase group and was sitting in well, couple of efforts to close gaps and catch some in front but I made a bit of a fubar... Got fiddling with re-pairing my headphones as hadn't got my music playing to start with (headphones needed charging), while doing so a gap opened and I wasn't quick enough to close it, around 4-5s down and a couple of efforts I realised I hadn't got anything left for it. Doh! Sat up and rode in with the 3rd group, trying to recover for the sprint. I thought I'd recovered enough and there where so many sitting in for the sprint I decided to go long just after the tunnel climb/descent. It didn't work and I got caught with ~600m to go, obviously had nothing left for the sprint which the others left quite late, didn't even break 500W. Came in 6th in C which is quite surprising as 10th+ on screen lol. Was a minute down on the group I'd got dropped from and should've finished with, would've been around 3rd/4th. :cool:

Really seem to have lost much of my top end, quite disheartening! I seem to have no 500W sprint anymore! :(

Tried my first Zwift race last night. Based on the suggested W/Kg ranges, I chose a 'C' race and got absolutely owned. My FTP is about 250 which puts me at about 2.9W/kg which was near the top of the range, yet I was having to push 350W just to keep up with the pack at times. I ended up beasting myself in Z5 for about 25 minutes and then curling up in a ball on the floor. I set a new FTP for myself though so at least that's something!

Edit: All the readings are from my Garmin Vector 3 pedals, so I'm confident in the numbers they're putting out.
Sounds brutal, especially for a C! What race was it? Give us a link to your data and we can pull it apart and tell you where you went wrong haha! :D

Read back some of my race reports I've stuck in here (like above) to see my tactics and how they generally play out. Most of them will have the ZP and Strava links to each race if you want to see the data.

@Berger is clever and doesn't post his, but I'm sneaky and usually track them down on Zwiftpower anyway! ;)

Much of Zwift racing as mentioned is above FTP/Threshold efforts to keep in a group and then recovering before the next. Very little of it is sustained FTP efforts if you've categorised correctly. The 'racecraft' side of it is being able to recover well after each effort - so hiding in the group as the tow effect is so large on Zwift. Chasing solo or breaking away just doesn't work very well at all if it's an active race. A quieter race you can find yourself either putting the effort in to drive things forwards and drop weaker riders, or sit yourself in and attempt breakaway/long sprints. Which obviously only work well if nobody else is driving the pace, you rest well and those around you are weaker.

The selections made at the start of races are hillarious, basically total sprint efforts. For me in C that's 4/5w efforts for a good minute or more. I do tend to make the B selection doing this but can't sustain the group so I ease up (normally) before blowing, forcing the main chase group to catch me. I used to race as a B and the efforts there where much more measured/paced/FTP type stuff with threshold up climbs. C is more below FTP riding in larger groups with the same threshold efforts on climbs, well into 4-4.5w/kg to be competitive.

There must be some wizardry involved to Zwift racing.
No wizardry. Just Zwift racing! :D ;)

Pushing 6w/kg on the front and lad behind doing 3.8 is sitting on quite the thing. Stupid.
The tow effect is too large - especially for a light guy like you towing the big guys. You seem to get good draft as a larger rider, from smaller ones, but the reverse seems true for them (you!).

It is quite broken. The group 'blob' effect even in rides with it set as 'normal' is probably 50% or more of what you realistically experience in groups. Large pelotons it might be more similar to.
 
Soldato
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It definitely seems to be the case guys can draft me so easily as I put out bigger numbers.
But I do not get the same tow from them. I need put put out bigger numbers to hold wheels.

So that is the opposite of real life where everyone moans as I am so small and they get no break from the wind but I get a great break behind larger blokes as I am so small :p
 
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Thanks for the tips guys. I've never raced IRL so this 'racing' malarkey was entirely new to me. Sounds like my biggest mistake was underestimating the effect of drafting as I basically sat on the front of the groupetto for about 15 minutes trying to chase back to the main bunch! Think I'll drop down to 'D' until I get the tactics nailed then try again in a 'C' race.
 
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Do not lose a wheel. If you lose the group you're done for.
I did half of the 62 mile ZHR (I think) training ride, and we were bolting around London at around 26-30mph avg. No way you'd catch up if dropped.
The first few races I did I under estimated how much people surge on the short stabby climbs, and lost groups a few times. (well the breakaway one)
 
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Ha Roady I don’t use tactics! Certainly nothing fancy, riding on my own not in a team. I currently either have to race C and compete for the win or get come middle/back end of B.

Just stay with the group for as long as possible as the draft will pull you along. If you get dropped then make sure you get on the group behind.

Don’t ever go to the front unless you have to as it can see-saw a bit here.

Surge from the back of the group to the front just before the base of the climb to slingshot yourself up.

Don’t start off from too far back in a sprint as gaps will open up and the front guys will be 3 seconds up the road while Zwift glues you to someone else instead of hopping off their wheel.
 
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Did a Zwift workout with a fan for the first time today (the Honeywell one that someone recommended). **** me! What a difference. HR was a good 10-15 bpm lower for the same effort as last week. I reckon if I retest my FTP it'll be a lot closer to my outdoor one now :)
 
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Did a Zwift workout with a fan for the first time today (the Honeywell one that someone recommended). **** me! What a difference. HR was a good 10-15 bpm lower for the same effort as last week. I reckon if I retest my FTP it'll be a lot closer to my outdoor one now :)

Been pleased with that Honeywell myself, really helps when temp approaches 24C in the kitchen, when I do a Virtugo or RoadGrandTours session.

I'm now running a higher FTP than I was outdoors this year, getting closer to my target of 300W, shame I've put on some weight so that won't be 4W/Kg! :D
 
Soldato
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That looks the business but you need it painted black at the very least! Maybe with some Canyon, Tacx and Zipp logos on it? :D

Have you done a build log? Would be quite interested in reading about the pitfalls and what you've found out while building/testing :)

So that is the opposite of real life where everyone moans as I am so small and they get no break from the wind but I get a great break behind larger blokes as I am so small :p
Pretty much! Zwift play with the drafting algorithm occasionally too, just recently they screwed 'Double Draft' and it became more like 'quadruple draft' in some training group rides, with the 'normal' draft effect boosted to near previous DD levels. They've fixed it now but it does feel stronger than previously. When even previously it was too strong! :rolleyes:

Thanks for the tips guys. I've never raced IRL so this 'racing' malarkey was entirely new to me. Sounds like my biggest mistake was underestimating the effect of drafting as I basically sat on the front of the groupetto for about 15 minutes trying to chase back to the main bunch! Think I'll drop down to 'D' until I get the tactics nailed then try again in a 'C' race.
I've never raced IRL either, wouldn't want to as can't justify the risk! but Zwift racing is fun and really pushes me harder than any training session. Although I seem to have more stamina reserves at threshold Zwift racing than I do when riding outside, which is slightly annoying!

Stick in C, just keep riding and learning. Takes me 3-4 races to get back into the tactical side of things after any longer break. D you'll find really 'easy' to ride at FTP and drop people, coming up to C from that is brutal. But I would say that B racing is 'easier' than C. Certainly seemed less brutal to me - maybe I just had such better fitness when I was a B! Some of my recent C races have been brutal efforts (see below).

Do not lose a wheel. If you lose the group you're done for.
I did half of the 62 mile ZHR (I think) training ride, and we were bolting around London at around 26-30mph avg. No way you'd catch up if dropped.
The first few races I did I under estimated how much people surge on the short stabby climbs, and lost groups a few times. (well the breakaway one)
All of this! Even group rides people surge up the climbs! I rode the Sky NYC course as a race a week ago and it was utterly utterly brutal as I didn't really know what to expect. I expected it to be mostly flat! :D

Don’t start off from too far back in a sprint as gaps will open up and the front guys will be 3 seconds up the road while Zwift glues you to someone else instead of hopping off their wheel.
Getting a sticky draft is damn annoying. Sometimes takes over 1-2w/kg+ to the rider in front to break out of their draft and gain enough on them to overtake! The couple of seconds that takes can lose races/wheels of others who don't get stuck in the same draft as you. :o

Did a Zwift workout with a fan for the first time today (the Honeywell one that someone recommended). **** me! What a difference. HR was a good 10-15 bpm lower for the same effort as last week. I reckon if I retest my FTP it'll be a lot closer to my outdoor one now :)
Can't imagine Zwifting without a fan. Last winter even in the sub zero I was still using a fan. Overshoes, leg warmers, arm warmers, full fingered windproof gloves, but with a fan on to cool my torso. My extremities didn't need cooling! :o :D

Having a few issues with disconnects for my races over the break. Have had a more flaky home broadband connection too so figuring it's down to that, although the drop on Sunday (with 300ft to go, just as the sprint ramped up!) didn't coincide with a broadband drop. It did coincide with the other half plugging in an Amazon Echo Dot Alexa thingy, so I'm blaming that. Damn annoying to be disconnected when just starting my sprint with the finish line in sight! :o

Although loooking at that ride now, there's a bunch of HR drops I hadn't noticed before. Maybe I am getting some interference from something. Hmm!

30/12. 3R Volcano race - disconnected 300ft to go. Still came in 3rd but would've been troubling the lead without it! Was closer to 20th on screen. :(
29/12. Team Italy Gladiators Race - disconnected 6 miles to go. Would've been 3/4/5th. Brutal course on NYC 'Everything Bagel', defo not flat like I thought! Check that avg HR of 176, disconnected at 185bpm! :o
29/12. Xert Hardness test, but cut short as wanted to race.
26/12. Xert training session - I won't back down.

Xert has estimated my current FTP at 266W, which is a little higher than I thought, but looking at power/intensity from those races it makes sense. Have been quite happy with it even though I've not used it as much as I wanted.

Anyone doing the Tour de Zwift? https://zwift.com/tour-de-zwift

Stage 1 is 3rd & 4th (so finishes tonight) but it'll be too cold for me to ride in my garage later (trying to avoid/shake off illness!). Think I might try and ride the rest of it as it might just be the kick into fitness I need...
 
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Soldato
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@Roady - You have 2x catch up days at end of month so you can catch stage 1 and others you miss at end of month.

I am doing it. Done stage 1 at 0500 yesterday and will do stage 2 tomorrow. It's a pile of nonsense but it's something to keep my brain ticking over and do super early mornings before dropping wee man to the child minder.
 
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I did stage 1. Was just a good way of spinning the legs over really. 2000 people so there’s always people moving up or falling back to draft.

Two pairs of socks, leg warmers, full length arms and gillet on the trainer last night!
 
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How do you guys not boil? I'll start a TT session in the (unheated) garage with bib shorts, bog standard breathable T-shirt, fleece and if it's really cold, a fleece or belay jacket. After 10 to 15 minutes I'll be down to the T-shirt and bibs. My toes will get cold but without the fan on I'd drown!
 
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Look at you guys Zwifting in clothes! As an indoor Zwifter I have to leave the heating on, lest the wife freezes to death. I can't even imagine doing it in anything more than a pair of bib shorts with the straps off and that's with all the ground floor windows wide open and a fan on!
 
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Just did stage 1 of the Zwift tour. They say it's not a race but that lasted about 30 seconds then everyone went for it.

https://www.strava.com/activities/2055645250

Big effort for me, made# record power.

# I calibrated the trainer immediately before and got my weight in to the nearest .3 of a kilo, but I used my vortex rather than my flux so I probably got 10w to 15w gain as I'm pretty sure the vortex over-reads. HR data shows how hard I was trying though.
 
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@Roady - You have 2x catch up days at end of month so you can catch stage 1 and others you miss at end of month.

I am doing it. Done stage 1 at 0500 yesterday and will do stage 2 tomorrow. It's a pile of nonsense but it's something to keep my brain ticking over and do super early mornings before dropping wee man to the child minder.
Yeah know about the catchups now! I'm going to try and use it as a reason to get some volume & intensity in, treating them as races! Did stage #2 yesterday. Bagel on NYC. Second time I've 'raced' it and it's absolutely BRUTAL! I must like hurting myself as it's currently my favourite course on Zwift... Haha! :D

I did stage 1. Was just a good way of spinning the legs over really. 2000 people so there’s always people moving up or falling back to draft.
Yup just shy of 2k on the one I did, then after the late starters there where over 2300 riders. I smashed it out and prompty lost all riders from my screen. Loads had it, so a Zwift issue with the volume. A bunch also got turned the wrong way and ended up doing the course in reverse... Glad that wasn't me! Huge (usual) start and was hanging on the tails of the main front group of around 150 riders, while my on screen placing was showing me in around 870 place, clearly not correct & bugged!

How do you guys not boil? I'll start a TT session in the (unheated) garage with bib shorts, bog standard breathable T-shirt, fleece and if it's really cold, a fleece or belay jacket. After 10 to 15 minutes I'll be down to the T-shirt and bibs. My toes will get cold but without the fan on I'd drown!
We're obviously far more efficient racing machines who feel the cold! ;) :D

To be fair my torso melts, on sunday although I was warming up in thick arm warmers, full fingered gloves, jersey & fleece. With a good long warm up done I was down to jersey & short fingered gloves by race time (hands get too sweaty without gloves as my bar tape isn't fabric). Usually will keep knee warmers on as my legs don't really overheat (in temps below 10 degrees) and arm warmers generally rolled back from my wrists. By the end jersey was off & arm warmers too! I was baked!

Look at you guys Zwifting in clothes! As an indoor Zwifter I have to leave the heating on, lest the wife freezes to death. I can't even imagine doing it in anything more than a pair of bib shorts with the straps off and that's with all the ground floor windows wide open and a fan on!
Can totally understand that. I did some of the Tour of Sufferlandria 2017 inside as it was so cold out & utterly utterly melted!

Just did stage 1 of the Zwift tour. They say it's not a race but that lasted about 30 seconds then everyone went for it.

https://www.strava.com/activities/2055645250

Big effort for me, made# record power.

# I calibrated the trainer immediately before and got my weight in to the nearest .3 of a kilo, but I used my vortex rather than my flux so I probably got 10w to 15w gain as I'm pretty sure the vortex over-reads. HR data shows how hard I was trying though.
Mega ride mate, intensity and relative effort really show how brutal that was! :)

Why back to the Vortex though? Lent mine out to a friend with the hope he'll enjoy it enough to buy it from me!
 
Soldato
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Thanks Roady.

Yes it was a convenience thing actually - my 9 yo daughter had a go on Zwift - I set her up on the Vortex (her bike won't go onto my Flux) so it was easier for me to just shove my bike onto the Vortex straight after and get started, than swap the trainers over. I'm certain I didn't put out 250w, nice as it looks :)
 
Soldato
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Yeah know about the catchups now! I'm going to try and use it as a reason to get some volume & intensity in, treating them as races! Did stage #2 yesterday. Bagel on NYC. Second time I've 'raced' it and it's absolutely BRUTAL! I must like hurting myself as it's currently my favourite course on Zwift... Haha! :D

I am preferring it to the usual scheduled races as there is decent climbing in them.
Stage 2 I started WAY far back I was passing people at 400w for absolutely ages to get to front group. Few suspicious Chinese riders buggered off up the road somehow but we caught them up. It was quite snazzy being on front spells and it saying 1 of 3000 or whatever it was :p
I think I got 9th or something on stage 2 which was the 7am one on Saturday. Much more fun than the usual races.
 
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