GPs complaints regarding work life balance

[Dis86]

Apart from when they miss symptoms... like my sister in law who died from breast cancer because her GP didn't take it seriously until it was too late... for example.

And do you think that horrendous outcome was a result of fatigue or a result of competence? Not knowing the circumstances the way you write it it sounds like multiple chances were missed which I'd lay at the feet of competence.

GPs are there to collate symptoms and then decide whether they require minor treatment or further investigation by a specialist. My GP for example admitted she has no clue what's currently wrong with me and so has sent me for multiple blood tests.

You could argue many careers are life and death. I used to design sub-sea oil and gas hardware. One mistake in a calculation I carried out and you're looking at another deepwater. Thats dozens of lives at risk. I required 4 years of uni, experience in several complex software programmes and years of work experience to be able to do that. I certainly didn't get 90k+ and I worked long hours. Infact, like most people of that level of professionalism I was salaried and didn't get a penny extra when working long hours. GPs like many health workers in this country have excellent remuneration and benefits packages. I don't think many of them (NHS workers) realise how fortunate they are.

Prime example is a friend of mine. 50 days holiday a year. Competitive pay. If he works even a minute over his standard hours he gets a minimum of 1 hour overtime. He's on call for 1 week a month...the job he does is supporting GP practices so he only works when they're open which means he never gets a call out of standard working hours anyway ergo he's getting paid an on call rate for nothing.
He has access to unlimited overtime despite this.
Access to NHS fleet solutions. A very good pension package. Oh and the host of other benefits they get.

 

[FoxEye]

Plenty of professions require training, experience and a high skill level including much of the IT industry.
We dont usually see 90k + but many will put in similar hours to a doctor, teacher ect.

Er not really sure what my point was so ... move along

Outside hardware and software development, much of the IT industry isn't exactly highly skilled.

I'm not sure what % of the industry development constitutes. The majority? Not sure. Seems to be a lot of admin, support roles, etc.

 

[Hades]

And do you think that horrendous outcome was a result of fatigue or a result of competence?

I have no idea. But the point is that GP's do indeed make life or death decisions.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Does high pay MUST come with Long hours and bad work/life balance?

Surely when you go through all that studies, exams, training, Junior doctors, etc the goal is to get a job that is well paid WITH a good work life balance?

Otherwise what would be the point?

 

[Raymond Lin]

They go through a degree that costs the same per year as any other. Often it lasts 1 year longer though so 9.5k more. So that point is kinda moot.

Do you have anything to support that most people couldn't be a doctor? Anecdotally the most dopey person I know is one!

Don't you need good grades from very young? i.e. As in GCSE and As in A-Level in order to apply to do a degree in medicine. It's not like you got a chance to rock up to university to do medicine with 3 Cs in A-levels with 7 Bs in GCSEs. So it's not just a longer degree than normal but having worked hard at school from a very young age to get a chance to even get your foot through the door to do the degree in the first place.

Whilst I don't have anything to support that most people can't be a doctor, but I don't believe that most people got what it takes to be a doctor.

(You are probably going to reply with the percentages of As in A-Level results being a lot but how many are those are in Chemistry, Mathematics, as opposed to Media Studies?)

 

[Overlag]

But just because someone is paid well it doesn't mean they should work silly hours.

So what about us normal people who are paid average or below wages that have to do <12hour shifts, starting anywhere from 4am and finishing as late as 2am?

 

[Hades]

So what about us normal people who are paid average or below wages that have to do <12hour shifts, starting anywhere from 4am and finishing as late as 2am?

I'm saying that no-one should have to work excessive hours even if they earn a lot of money. Not sure what your point is.

 

[Old Man]

The average pay for the doctors in my area is £100k yearly and that is for normal hours, but the quality of their work should be the main issue as in my 20+ years in this country, many of the doctors and specialists imo were more interested in keeping the time down to 5-10 minutes and cared very little for your problems and were of little or no help. This is not to say all are like this, but many are imo and I think way too many unqualified or poorly trained doctors out there are getting way too much money for a job they are clearly not ready for. I always took it for granted that being a doctor meant there would be a good chance you would need to put in the overtime and in some cases working much more than the average, but I don't see much of that here.

 

[Rroff]

Except that lass who practised for years without any qualifications whatsoever

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/doctor-practiced-medicine-22-years-without-qualification-checks/

22 years before being found out

Two doctors in my family and both are at great pains to remind us that they are effectively always in training. Various (yearly?) courses and exams that basically never end, throughout their careers.

And the shifts they both put in even as medical students are/were really crazy. In fact as medical students they often didn't sleep for days on end... which is pretty frightening, from a potential patient's POV. Same as I wouldn't want a pilot on a 72 hour non-stop shift flying my plane...

We all know the NHS in this country is barely functioning, don't we? Due to real-terms cuts and all.

Reminds me of this guy https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/06/jon-andrewes-nhs-jailed there was another similar one as well with a guy with zero qualifications or experience who somehow blagged his way into a senior position at the NHS though I can't find from a quick google who by all reports from people under him did a way better job than the last two fully qualified people in the position.

 

[Energize]

Doctors go through extensive, and costly training. Most people could be a nurse or teacher if they wanted. Not many could qualify as a doctor. So they deserve their money.

But just because someone is paid well it doesn't mean they should work silly hours.

This is an entitlement attitude, just because someone has a professional degree doesn't mean they should automatically be paid a lot of money.

 

[StriderX]

The average pay for the doctors in my area is £100k yearly and that is for normal hours, but the quality of their work should be the main issue as in my 20+ years in this country, many of the doctors and specialists imo were more interested in keeping the time down to 5-10 minutes and cared very little for your problems and were of little or no help. This is not to say all are like this, but many are imo and I think way too many unqualified or poorly trained doctors out there are getting way too much money for a job they are clearly not ready for. I always took it for granted that being a doctor meant there would be a good chance you would need to put in the overtime and in some cases working much more than the average, but I don't see much of that here.

You really seriously think the time limits are a choice?

 

[ahar]

The option to being unhappy with your current job is always to go and find another one.

Definitely much harder for some people given where they live, qualifications etc. Not the case for a GP however. Particularly as GP practices in general are small businesses (though I accept not all), so they have the flexibility to arrange themselves around the working hours they want.

A practice where the partners are working long hours could employ more staff to share the load (although I accept the supply of junior doctors choosing GP as their specialty is falling, so they may not be able to find the staff), but that would mean less money for them.

Longer hours, more profit share. Shorter hours, less cash, at least for gp practice partners.

 

[Buddy]

Hello GP here.

1. Yes we make life and death decisions on a daily basis depending on your definition of what this is. E.g. best interests, palliative, preventative medicine, polypharmacy.

2. We diagnose and manage pretty much most conditions contrary to public perception. Increasingly, more and more is being pushed out to GPs. Often the only time I will refer is when all options in the community have been exhausted and I either need the patient on a specialist drug that is black listed in the community (cost) or a procedure to confirm what I already know or surgery to correct something. Even then drugs which were hospital only a few years ago are now prescribed by GPs. This trend will only continue as the NHS slowly falls apart.

3. I would love to have more than 10mins to take a history, examine, diagnose, manage and discuss a problem with a patient. Often due to waiting times most come with at least 2. Do you think this is safe?

I then have a waiting room full of angry patients who have waited up to 2 weeks+ to be seen who are even more annoyed that I'm running late.

4. No GP is complaining about pay. It's when the public (demonstrated by views in this thread) and the government increasingly blame primary care for current problems. Doctors are leaving the UK. Fewer are choosing to become doctors let alone GPs. Which means fewer appointments. Longer waiting times. We are fighting fire on a weekly basis to meet demand. Over the last 4 years we have gone through 4 different appointment systems to manage this.

So the complaints on work load are centred on:

1.safety for the patient and doctor. I dont want to make a mistake and lose my licence because a patient came with 5 problems in a 10 minute appointment. Some problems I cannot ignore only for me to miss telling him/her one important piece of information. The patient also needs to feel that they have been listened to. Not rushed. That they have been appropriately managed. This affects you.

2. Meeting demand. For the reasons stated we now have hubs offering GP appointments when we are full up. An overflow. These should not need to exist. This has a domino effect. Can't see the GP? Hub full? AE then. (Most AE attendance are inappropriate). The delay in seeing a doctor means some present much later in their disease. Early interventions are now too late or inadequate- you then might need a referral. Increasing waiting times. This affects you.

3. The days are intense. Just like my hospital colleagues I feel exhausted by the end of it. In our practice alone we've had 3 GPs (30%) go off sick due to burn out. Why would you become a salaried GP or partner? Small practices are therefore shut down. The experience for the patient is less personal. Locum and you feed on the demand of empty seats. Guess who this affects?

You can continue to have pointless circular arguments on pay that no GP is complaining about or you can listen to legitimate issues.

 

[h4rm0ny]

I work silly hours when I have a contract on.

But the difference is I can decide not to take on the contract or cut back on my hours a little if I have other things I need to do or it's just gotten too much. If a doctor chooses to cut back on their hours people can die or be in great pain. There's a pressure on doctors to work that goes beyond the money-effort equation the rest of us balance. The shortage of doctors makes this so.

GP's generally don't make life or death decisions though.

It doesn't matter if the general case is a life or death decision. What matters is they do.

The option to being unhappy with your current job is always to go and find another one.

Definitely much harder for some people given where they live, qualifications etc. Not the case for a GP however. Particularly as GP practices in general are small businesses (though I accept not all), so they have the flexibility to arrange themselves around the working hours they want.

A practice where the partners are working long hours could employ more staff to share the load (although I accept the supply of junior doctors choosing GP as their specialty is falling, so they may not be able to find the staff), but that would mean less money for them.

Longer hours, more profit share. Shorter hours, less cash, at least for gp practice partners.

See my first point, for all of this.

 

[DarrenM343]

Doctors go through extensive, and costly training. Most people could be a nurse or teacher if they wanted. Not many could qualify as a doctor. So they deserve their money.

But just because someone is paid well it doesn't mean they should work silly hours.

Agree about the salary side of things but when you enter a career where silly hours are acceptable and the norm it seems wrong to start complaining about it. And of course they'll want their £90k if they don't work their normal silly hours too.
It's a fair point though (work/life balance probably isn't great)but as is often the case - the passion for a career or job gets lost (where they'll happily work silly hours because they love it) and then want to work 8 hour days, arriving and leaving on the dot
From a customer point of view, it's often difficult to even get to see a doctor in a reasonable amount of time often regardless of what hours they work. The fix is of course to get more doctor's and that will give some flex to doctors from having to work silly hours too often.
Not long ago I noted that half of the doctors at my local surgery were part time only. They seemingly don't all work silly hours. What do they do when not working? Probably side jobs in some cases earning even more on an hourly rate . I think being a GP can get pretty tedious so can't blame them I suppose - we just need a lot more GP's. I had to wait 4 weeks recently for an appointment which is also completely unacceptable from a customer perspective.

 

[tamzzy]

On average a GP earns £90,000 according to internet statistics.

pretty sure your google-fu is clicking on the first link google supplies.
but...

"For salaried GPs employed under the model salaried GP contract, the salary range set out by the DDRB (Doctors and Dentists Review Body) applies. This states that the minimum annual salary for a full-time salaried GP working 37.5 hours or nine sessions per week is £57,655 for 2018-19 (plus London weighting for those working in London). For a doctor working less than full time, this salary is calculated on a pro rata basis (eg if working 20 hours per week then the minimum salary would be £30,146.67).
While the DDRB pay range for salaried GPs goes up to £87,003 for 2018-19, it is recognised that there is no upper limit. This means that employers are able to award a higher salary and you must ensure your salary reflects the roles’ level of responsibility, your experience and qualifications."

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice/employment/pay/general-practitioners-pay

(most GPs aren't partners, they're salaried iirc)

Does this level of earning not come with the expectation of long hours and lack of a good work life balance?

can GPs work a little less now?

Hello GP here.

props to you mate. as a fellow colleague (in intensive care), i couldn't work in primary care and deal with 99.9% of the crap you deal with day in, day out.
(sitting on your arse all day, drinking tea, and shooing patients out of the door after 10 mins...lol )

 

[stockhausen]

I guess that the ease of qualifying, the incredibly high pay and the minimal and the stress-free working hours explains why it is so easy to recruit GPs and GP Surgeries are closing down then . . . .

 

[Hades]

This is an entitlement attitude, just because someone has a professional degree doesn't mean they should automatically be paid a lot of money.

No it's supply and demand. There is demand for people who make us well and stop us dying and not many people who have the skills to qualify for it. I am happy that doctors get paid a lot. They have certainly saved my life before.

 

[Randomface74]

There's a lot of hate for people just because they have more money than you. Pathetic.
Go work as a GP and see how you like it.

 

[OpenToSuggestions]

Doctors go through extensive, and costly training. Most people could be a nurse or teacher if they wanted. Not many could qualify as a doctor. So they deserve their money.

But just because someone is paid well it doesn't mean they should work silly hours.

I agree.
Teachers really do have a lack of perspective since the vast majority have never done anything else. Yes there is a serious amount of planning....once. Then the remaining 40 years of your life are the same year stuck on repeat.

I can't see the likeness between a GP (responsible for people's lives) to someone with a social sciences degree teaching 6 year old children their 2x tables with no shifts and 13 weeks of holiday per year. Plus they get 10% off timetable time to plan too.

I know a few people who are doctors (having done stints as a GP as part of their training) and the pressure sounds horrendous.