Agent Orange endorses Bonker Boris.

I wonder what possible motive Agent Orange could have in endorsing the lunatics Bonker Boris and now Farage :confused:

Could it be I wonder that Great Britain would become a slave state to America when it is universally despised and ridiculed and absolutely desperate for ANY trade deal at all (except with China of course)?

Maybe because Trump actually knows how to negotiate and our government doesn't have the first idea. Trump likes Britain a lot, he has a Scottish Mother so is basically half British, you think he wants to make us a slave state? He probably cares more about the UK than half our politicians
 
Maybe because Trump actually knows how to negotiate and our government doesn't have the first idea. Trump likes Britain a lot, he has a Scottish Mother so is basically half British, you think he wants to make us a slave state? He probably cares more about the UK than half our politicians

Does he now? Why has all his businesses failed then, why have most of his administration been convicted of crimes or abandoned?

A good negotiator doesn't fail, the orange **** doesn't even know that American citizens are the ones paying those tariffs, if it was so good he wouldn't also be forced to give farmers he promised a good future, billions in relief.

He's a fat piece of **** disaster and i lol every time i see that they voted for him, i hope they do it again so i can laugh even harder.
 
Maybe because Trump actually knows how to negotiate

I can understand why you would think that, but all Trump is is a bully who throws his weight around, and the US has a lot of weight to leverage, and I can imagine you look up to traits like that.

But don't confuse that with being a good [International Trade] negotiator of which he most demonstrably isn't.

There was a good article written by a professor of trade negotiations on this subject

Trump, as most of us know, is the credited author of "The Art of the Deal," a book that was actually ghost written by a man named Tony Schwartz, who was given access to Trump and wrote based upon his observations. If you've read The Art of the Deal, or if you've followed Trump lately, you'll know, even if you didn't know the label, that he sees all dealmaking as what we call "distributive bargaining."

Distributive bargaining always has a winner and a loser. It happens when there is a fixed quantity of something and two sides are fighting over how it gets distributed. Think of it as a pie and you're fighting over who gets how many pieces. In Trump's world, the bargaining was for a building, or for construction work, or subcontractors. He perceives a successful bargain as one in which there is a winner and a loser, so if he pays less than the seller wants, he wins. The more he saves the more he wins.

The other type of bargaining is called integrative bargaining. In integrative bargaining the two sides don't have a complete conflict of interest, and it is possible to reach mutually beneficial agreements. Think of it, not a single pie to be divided by two hungry people, but as a baker and a caterer negotiating over how many pies will be baked at what prices, and the nature of their ongoing relationship after this one gig is over.

The problem with Trump is that he sees only distributive bargaining in an international world that requires integrative bargaining. He can raise tariffs, but so can other countries. He can't demand they not respond. There is no defined end to the negotiation and there is no simple winner and loser. There are always more pies to be baked. Further, negotiations aren't binary. China's choices aren't (a) buy soybeans from US farmers, or (b) don't buy soybeans. They can also (c) buy soybeans from Russia, or Argentina, or Brazil, or Canada, etc. That completely strips the distributive bargainer of his power to win or lose, to control the negotiation.

One of the risks of distributive bargaining is bad will. In a one-time distributive bargain, e.g. negotiating with the cabinet maker in your casino about whether you're going to pay his whole bill or demand a discount, you don't have to worry about your ongoing credibility or the next deal. If you do that to the cabinet maker, you can bet he won't agree to do the cabinets in your next casino, and you're going to have to find another cabinet maker.

There isn't another Canada.

So when you approach international negotiation, in a world as complex as ours, with integrated economies and multiple buyers and sellers, you simply must approach them through integrative bargaining. If you attempt distributive bargaining, success is impossible. And we see that already.

Trump has raised tariffs on China. China responded, in addition to raising tariffs on US goods, by dropping all its soybean orders from the US and buying them from Russia. The effect is not only to cause tremendous harm to US farmers, but also to increase Russian revenue, making Russia less susceptible to sanctions and boycotts, increasing its economic and political power in the world, and reducing ours. Trump saw steel and aluminum and thought it would be an easy win, BECAUSE HE SAW ONLY STEEL AND ALUMINUM - HE SEES EVERY NEGOTIATION AS DISTRIBUTIVE. China saw it as integrative, and integrated Russia and its soybean purchase orders into a far more complex negotiation ecosystem.

Trump has the same weakness politically. For every winner there must be a loser. And that's just not how politics works, not over the long run.

For people who study negotiations, this is incredibly basic stuff, negotiations 101, definitions you learn before you even start talking about styles and tactics. And here's another huge problem for us.

Trump is utterly convinced that his experience in a closely held real estate company has prepared him to run a nation, and therefore he rejects the advice of people who spent entire careers studying the nuances of international negotiations and diplomacy. But the leaders on the other side of the table have not eschewed expertise, they have embraced it. And that means they look at Trump and, given his very limited tool chest and his blindly distributive understanding of negotiation, they know exactly what he is going to do and exactly how to respond to it.

From a professional negotiation point of view, Trump isn't even bringing checkers to a chess match. He's bringing a quarter that he insists of flipping for heads or tails, while everybody else is studying the chess board to decide whether its better to open with Najdorf or Grünfeld.”

— David Honig
 
He can't do any worse than May, she's pretty much brought the Tory's to ruin by defying the will of the referendum.
He's a buffoon and she's had a difficult job to be honest.
What is the will of the referendum? 52% wanted to leave, 48% wanted to stay. She's not defied anything if you consider the bigger picture. It's a disaster, as is the whole LEave Europe act anyway, but she's tried to find an answer that pleases more than just 52% of the nation.
It's not like a game of football where everyone on the other side has to be a loser :). Would be different if 90% had voted Leave I'm sure,.
 
The mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has compared the language used by Donald Trump to rally his supporters to that of “the fascists of the 20th century” in an explosive intervention before the US president’s state visit to London that begins on Monday.

Khan said: “President Donald Trump is just one of the most egregious examples of a growing global threat. The far right is on the rise around the world, threatening our hard-won rights and freedoms and the values that have defined our liberal, democratic societies for more than 70 years.

“Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Matteo Salvini in Italy, Marine Le Pen in France and Nigel Farage here in the UK are using the same divisive tropes of the fascists of the 20th century to garner support, but with new sinister methods to deliver their message. And they are gaining ground and winning power and influence in places that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago.”
I wonder who Mr. Khan could have in mind :confused:

Writing in the Observer, Khan condemned the red-carpet treatment being afforded to Trump who, with his wife Melania (and sundry adult, attention seeking children), will be a guest of the Queen during his three-day stay, which is expected to provoke massive protests in London on Tuesday.
Note to self, book a ticket down to London for Tuesday and take the day off ;)
 
I don't like him, he has no standards and can't run an office (others had to run things when he was Mayor), so god help us if he is Prime Minister, but the UK is in such a mess, it may just need a lunatic like Boris to break the stalemate.

We don't even know if Boris Johnson really was elected mayor. They used electronic voting and the the Open Rights Group managed to get itself access to assess the process. Conclusion: No evidence of vote rigging but multiple opportunities where someone could have done so without being caught. Quite genuinely for all we know, an individual requiring no accomplices could have swapped a couple of numbers and chosen who was mayor in that election. Security of that election both technically and in terms of process, was fundamentally flawed.

Boris Johnson would sell his mother for a vote. I trust him as far as I could throw him.

That is not far.
 
I can understand why you would think that, but all Trump is is a bully who throws his weight around, and the US has a lot of weight to leverage, and I can imagine you look up to traits like that.

But don't confuse that with being a good [International Trade] negotiator of which he most demonstrably isn't.

There was a good article written by a professor of trade negotiations on this subject

I respect that in negotiations he's willing to walk away, that's something important that I've also learned. Trump is often called a bully yet I only see him go on the offensive when people attack him first, cowards have cheap digs at him then go all surprised pikachu when he goes in hard.

You can say he's a bad negotiator and quote articles from Professors, how bad can he be? He's a billionaire President, his achievements speak for them self. Watch some old interviews from before he was running for President and you'll see the real Trump, he obviously has a role to play to appeal to his voters.
 
You can say he's a bad negotiator and quote articles from Professors, how bad can he be?

I know right, what do the international trade experts know about international trade negotiations compared to a real estate businessman and reality TV star

He's a billionaire President, his achievements speak for them self.

Which ones are those, getting millions given to him by his father than losing so much much money he could write it off profits for the next decade, bankrupting casinos and needing multiple bailouts from his dad time and time again?

It's not hard to increase your wealth when you are given an enormous amount of it before you start, and even then Trump has struggled.

Watch some old interviews from before he was running for President and you'll see the real Trump, he obviously has a role to play to appeal to his voters.

Lets worry about what post dementia Trump is like rather than than interviews from 30 years ago
 
It's Trump's dad who was the successful business man (though a bit of a scumbag).

Donald Trump has only lost money. But there is so much of it, it will probably last a few generations.
 

Unfortunately this is just a result of the left creeping towards the extreme under one banner, which creates a class of "wrongthinkers" out of anyone who doesn't drink the koolaid.

His quote: "The far right is on the rise around the world, threatening our hard-won rights and freedoms and the values that have defined our liberal, democratic societies for more than 70 years." is less appropriate for describing the "far right" (whatever that actually is anyway), and more fitting to describe his own very popular - unfortunately now normalised - left beliefs. Identity politics and authoritarian centralisation of power is something the USSR did, which was a much larger threat to our the "Liberal, democratic societies" he professes to want to protect, for much longer, much less than 70 years ago. What has defined them in fact, is the opposite of what he stands for, the freedom of the individual and free market capitalism.
 
Unfortunately this is just a result of the left creeping towards the extreme under one banner, which creates a class of "wrongthinkers" out of anyone who doesn't drink the koolaid.

His quote: "The far right is on the rise around the world, threatening our hard-won rights and freedoms and the values that have defined our liberal, democratic societies for more than 70 years." is less appropriate for describing the "far right" (whatever that actually is anyway), and more fitting to describe his own very popular - unfortunately now normalised - left beliefs. Identity politics and authoritarian centralisation of power is something the USSR did, which was a much larger threat to our the "Liberal, democratic societies" he professes to want to protect, for much longer, much less than 70 years ago. What has defined them in fact, is the opposite of what he stands for, the freedom of the individual and free market capitalism.

Completely agree with this.
 
Unfortunately this is just a result of the left creeping towards the extreme under one banner, which creates a class of "wrongthinkers" out of anyone who doesn't drink the koolaid.

His quote: "The far right is on the rise around the world, threatening our hard-won rights and freedoms and the values that have defined our liberal, democratic societies for more than 70 years." is less appropriate for describing the "far right" (whatever that actually is anyway), and more fitting to describe his own very popular - unfortunately now normalised - left beliefs. Identity politics and authoritarian centralisation of power is something the USSR did, which was a much larger threat to our the "Liberal, democratic societies" he professes to want to protect, for much longer, much less than 70 years ago. What has defined them in fact, is the opposite of what he stands for, the freedom of the individual and free market capitalism.

You mean the over exaggerated tiny minority of very loud usually american socialists made viciously more public by the very people that say they're massive and need resisting?

That left wing? Because it barely exists in reality. Even on campuses, its miniscule, its bigger than the general population (a given), but far smaller than the exaggerations imply, 10% of student populaces barely interact with their unions in the first place, the rest is minding its business.

Inventing problems to solve is a lovely extremist position regardless of where you sit, and this is one of them.
 
You mean the over exaggerated tiny minority of very loud usually american socialists made viciously more public by the very people that say they're massive and need resisting?

That left wing? Because it barely exists in reality. Even on campuses, its miniscule, its bigger than the general population (a given), but far smaller than the exaggerations imply, 10% of student populaces barely interact with their unions in the first place, the rest is minding its business.

No, I don't mean them, but they are obviously part of the picture. I mean the general population, who have had their views shifted towards accepting the more extreme of left ideologies, assisted by the the ushering in of the politically correct society in which we now live where those who dare to go against the grain are demonised.

Inventing problems to solve is a lovely extremist position regardless of where you sit, and this is one of them.

That is exactly my point, you've just turned it around. Sadiq Khan is bogey-manning here, and the rise of the "far right" is a myth. People voting for the Brexit party pose a threat to him as his party's popularity (and by association, significance and power), so he is labelling everyone who voted for them as "far right" in an attempt to remove the legitimacy of their views, a shamefully undemocratic thing to do. The reason your average everyday person believes the far right is even a thing is because as the population on the whole has become more tolerant of left ideology, they are vulnerable to persuasion that centrists are now the right wing, and the ring wing are now outright Nazis, when in fact they haven't changed at all, only the average person's perspective has. For further reading on perspective, see below.

 
No, I don't mean them, but they are obviously part of the picture. I mean the general population, who have had their views shifted towards accepting the more extreme of left ideologies, assisted by the the ushering in of the politically correct society in which we now live where those who dare to go against the grain are demonised.



That is exactly my point, you've just turned it around. Sadiq Khan is bogey-manning here, and the rise of the "far right" is a myth. People voting for the Brexit party pose a threat to him as his party's popularity (and by association, significance and power), so he is labelling everyone who voted for them as "far right" in an attempt to remove the legitimacy of their views, a viciously undemocratic thing to do. The reason your average everyday person believes the far right is even a thing is because as the population on the whole has become more tolerant of left ideology, they are vulnerable to persuasion that centrists are now the right wing, and the ring wing are now outright Nazis, when in fact they haven't changed at all, only the average person's perspective has. For further reading on perspective, see below.


And yet the thin veil of hiding bigotry has been lifted and seemingly in the majority on one edge of fence, along with myriad 'i have mine, let me lift the ladder up' the further up the social pyramid you go.

The fact that UKIP is seen as far right now is mystifying while they simultaneously think UKIP v2 isn't, regardless of all the evidence to support the assertion, but whatever. That isn't to say the bigotry in say the communist edge isn't just as bad, it's simply about how able one side is in achieving action in the current climate. The fact is that many of Brexit supporters in the lower social classes have utterly contradicting ideas to the ones nearer the chummy oxbridge establishment, so must be supporting for other less fortunate ideas that they don't want to admit.
 
And yet the thin veil of hiding bigotry has been lifted and seemingly in the majority on one edge of fence, along with myriad 'i have mine, let me lift the ladder up' the further up the social pyramid you go.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

The fact is that many of Brexit supporters in the lower social classes have utterly contradicting ideas to the ones nearer the chummy oxbridge establishment, so must be supporting for other less fortunate ideas that they don't want to admit.

Well, I wasn't expecting you to just come out and say that quite so bluntly, but thank you for being honest that you have something against working class people. I think that's despicable, in my opinion someone's social class shouldn't affect the legitimacy of their viewpoint.
 
I'm not sure what you're referring to.



Well, I wasn't expecting you to just come out and say that quite so bluntly, but thank you for being honest that you have something against working class people. I think that's despicable, in my opinion someone's social class shouldn't affect the legitimacy of their viewpoint.

Is it not rather awkward for people who want the NHS (supporters of the 350m NHS line) to support several of Farages' cadre (and himself, even distancing himself from the poorly NHS promise) when they tacitly want to abolish it? The legitimacy of their viewpoint must be questioned because it's farcical.

The working class is by far the worst affected by Tory policy and BP looks to advance it into overdrive (indentured servitude in all but name), if they wont listen to rational arguments on why their position and the BP are polar opposites domestically, then they don't deserve a discussion, derision is all that's left.

The only reason left that has even a modicum of respect regardless of how facile it is, is to protest the system, if thats the only reason they're voting, then i can understand it.
 
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I wonder what the "half British" Agent Orange thinks about Nicola Sturgeon :confused:

Come to that, I wonder what she thinks of him, maybe she can call on his expertise in building walls ;)

Who cares? She isn't the Prime Minister or President of Scotland, she's head of some local parliament which is doing a poor job of governing because they have no actual policies outside of begging for a second referendum.
 
Is it not rather awkward for people who want the NHS (supporters of the 350m NHS line) to support several of Farages' cadre (and himself, even distancing himself from the poorly NHS promise) when they tacitly want to abolish it? The legitimacy of their viewpoint must be questioned because it's farcical.

While I understand your frustration, I wonder, do you apply this analysis equally or only to those you consider to have the wrong views? How do you view those that vote for the conservatives because they stated in their manifesto they want to reduce immigration however tacitly do the opposite?

Cutting through the polarised back forth, it seems that what you fundamentally have a problem with is our democratic process, and I agree it isn't perfect. In its current state it's nigh on impossible to deduce the defined "will of the people", as everyone votes for different parties for different reasons. I've voted for 3 different parties from different sides of the fence over the last 5 years, and while some of that is down to my own personal political journey, I never agreed with any party completely. With this in mind, demonising people as "far right", casting the views of every person who voted for the Brexit party aside as if they don't count simply because they don't agree with some things some of the leading members stand for doesn't strike me as a reasonable action. I think we should all expect better from our leaders, especially the mayor of our capital.
 
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