We're all organ doners now...

Steampunk said:
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Other opt-out systems around the world have shown that it helps a great many people just by making more organs available for transplant that would otherwise just go into the ground or the fire.
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That's not true for the UK (and many other places) for these reasons:

1) In the vast majority of deaths most organs can't be harvested anyway. There are a lot of circumstances that rule it out and even in the right circumstances there's a very small window of opportunity. Unless a person dies on life support in hospital and is otherwise in good health you're probably not going to be able to use their corpse for spares.
2) Most people who could donate had already given their consent to donate.

So in exchange for removing the need for consent there might be a small increase in transplants. Maybe. The claim that there will be a very large increase is simply false.
 
Angilion said:
Consent. See above.

I notice that many people are conflating the ethics of organ donation with the ethics of consent. That's at best confused and at worst deceitful. They are two completely different and seperate issues.
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"Muh consent... nnngh." I think it's you who is confused. Don't try and twist the ideology of this change into something that resembles a breach of human rights. You are perfectly able to deal with this harrowing loss of consent by opting-out. The person lying unconscious has no such ability. You are conflating a crime with a democratically agreed change in the system.
 
Angilion said:
That's not true for the UK (and many other places) for these reasons:

1) In the vast majority of deaths most organs can't be harvested anyway. There are a lot of circumstances that rule it out and even in the right circumstances there's a very small window of opportunity. Unless a person dies on life support in hospital and is otherwise in good health you're probably not going to be able to use their corpse for spares.
2) Most people who could donate had already given their consent to donate.

So in exchange for removing the need for consent there might be a small increase in transplants. Maybe. The claim that there will be a very large increase is simply false.
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Well having done a bit of googling on heart transplants, there about about 200 heart transplants per year in the uk, and there are about 313 people on the waiting list as of September last year. So given your points above about suitable donors and small harvest windows (which I completely agree with), opening the donation system up to all people who die could have a very significant impact on the waiting list. Just 313 compatible donor hearts would wipe out the waiting list for heart transplants.

Given that just over 600,000 people died in the uk in 2019, it wouldn't take much to make a big difference. This is especially the case in minority ethnic groups that are the most difficult to organ match, and yet have some of the lowest opt-in rates of the older organ donation system.

If the situation was replicated as per my friend who recently died, and who's organs went to four other people, the benefit could even be amplified beyond a single person's donation ie one person dies, but four people are helped.

I guess we'll find out if the proof is in the pudding as the system gets used over the next few years, but there has been some research on opt-in/opt-out systems for kidney transplants, and opt-out systems do generate more donated kidneys and more kidney transplant operations.
 
Steampunk said:
Well having done a bit of googling on heart transplants, there about about 200 heart transplants per year in the uk, and there are about 313 people on the waiting list as of September last year. So given your points above about suitable donors and small harvest windows (which I completely agree with), opening the donation system up to all people who die could have a very significant impact on the waiting list. Just 313 compatible donor hearts would wipe out the waiting list for heart transplants.

Given that just over 600,000 people died in the uk in 2019, it wouldn't take much to make a big difference. This is especially the case in minority ethnic groups that are the most difficult to organ match, and yet have some of the lowest opt-in rates of the older organ donation system.

If the situation was replicated as per my friend who recently died, and who's organs went to four other people, the benefit could even be amplified beyond a single person's donation ie one person dies, but four people are helped.

I guess we'll find out if the proof is in the pudding as the system gets used over the next few years, but there has been some research on opt-in/opt-out systems for kidney transplants, and opt-out systems do generate more donated kidneys and more kidney transplant operations.
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+1

I'm betting a lot of these people opting out are single and don't have kids, etc. Probably not even close with their family either. Basically loners being selfish because nobody loves them.
 
Ahleckz said:
I don't get this at all, why are your eyes any more you than your big toe nail? They aren't, donate them and give someone the opportunity to see. You'll be dead.
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Because if you're lying in a coffin it's not the nicest for a relative to see you have potentially been butchered if in an open casket?? How often do you see someone looking at peoples toenails when they're dead..

I'm not asking for someone elses corneas or the likes. Maybe a heart or lung etc if needed but that's why I've opted in for those.
 
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It's a very simple choice really.
Would you accept an organ of so you should donate.
If you don't donate your shouldn't accept one.

If your the sort of person that wouldn't donate cut would accept, well your skum.
 
Angilion said:
Not really, no.

Here's a scenario about consent:

A person is unconscious. Is it OK to use them for sexual purposes?

1) Opt-in. No, it isn't. They are not giving consent.
2) Opt-out. Yes, it is. They are not not giving consent. They are not actively saying "no".



Consent. See above.

I notice that many people are conflating the ethics of organ donation with the ethics of consent. That's at best confused and at worst deceitful. They are two completely different and seperate issues.
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Suggesting that this is in any way similar to rape is of an unconscious person is insulting. There is a very clear consent process which you, and indeed every person in England is free to participate in. People are free to withdraw their consent at any stage. Consent is presumed up until this point.
 
Angilion said:
Not really, no.

Here's a scenario about consent:

A person is unconscious. Is it OK to use them for sexual purposes?

1) Opt-in. No, it isn't. They are not giving consent.
2) Opt-out. Yes, it is. They are not not giving consent. They are not actively saying "no".



Consent. See above.

I notice that many people are conflating the ethics of organ donation with the ethics of consent. That's at best confused and at worst deceitful. They are two completely different and seperate issues.
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Sorry, I don't think you can compare those 2 scenarios fairly.
Are you saying that you don't consent to it then?
 
tom_nieto said:
Suggesting that this is in any way similar to rape is of an unconscious person is insulting. There is a very clear consent process which you, and indeed every person in England is free to participate in. People are free to withdraw their consent at any stage. Consent is presumed up until this point.
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Hes not suggesting that it is similar to rape at all, he is comparing the concept of presumed consent. Consent should be given and not assumed.
 
All these people on here saying that if their organs packed up they’d just choose to die is diabolical.

There’s no way you can say that until you are suffering badly from heart, lung, liver, kidney etc failure. You just cannot comprehend the physical and mental trauma you go through with it until you’ve experienced it yourself.
 
CosmicClown said:
Yeah was disgusted when I found out.

Opted straight out.

Don't want anyone elses organs either, thanks.

If mine bugger up I'll accept death graciously.
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I struggle to believe that. In the same way people would ordinarily vow never to eat certain foods or commit cannibalism, when you are faced with survival your higher thinking brain doesn't really factor into it, your instincts are programmed to make you survive.

So if anybody ever found themselves on the operating table and the surgeon gave you an ultimatum of take this organ and survive and continue your life, or don't and perish within 60 minutes nobody would take a philosophical approach on that, survival trumps all.
 
norm said:
I struggle to believe that. In the same way people would ordinarily vow never to eat certain foods or commit cannibalism, when you are faced with survival your higher thinking brain doesn't really factor into it, your instincts are programmed to make you survive.

So if anybody ever found themselves on the operating table and the surgeon gave you an ultimatum of take this organ and survive and continue your life, or don't and perish within 60 minutes nobody would take a philosophical approach on that, survival trumps all.
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It’s rubbish. None of them would refuse a life saving transplant if it came to it.
 
Candidates refusing surgery were likely to have a psychiatric diagnosis
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The main reasons for refusing kidney transplantation were the side-effects of immunosuppressive therapy
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How many would flat-out refuse it on a point of principle though that's the point. Having doubts on the success of the transplant is something different entirely.
 
norm said:
How many would flat-out refuse it on a point of principle though that's the point. Having doubts on the success of the transplant is something different entirely.
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So now you are changing the terms of refusal. The post I quoted he stated “None of them would refuse a life saving transplant”. People do for numerous reasons from the list from those links which you conveniently chose to ignore. What makes you think people wouldn’t have the same concerns and think stuff it, it’s not for me?
 
Bear said:
What makes you think people wouldn’t have the same concerns and think stuff it, it’s not for me?
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It goes further than that though, people who say they would refuse a donation to save their own lives, under certain circumstances maybe, but would they choose the same fate for their kids if the situation arose?

You either believe in the organ donation concept as a whole or not at all, and I don't believe you could ethically deprive somebody else the right to live based on your own tenuous beliefs.
 
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