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Is x86 on its way out?

Soldato
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Seems so as apple are going all ARM on there next line of laptops and machines.

What are your thoughts?

Is ARM good enough to host servers for say this forum?

Be able to play the next COD and any future triple A gaming titles on it?

Be able to run various IDE for developing/coding stuff like websites, mobile apps, software,s backend services etc?

Or is it not viable yet and apple's ARM wont succed?
 
Don
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Is ARM good enough to host servers for say this forum?

Be able to play the next COD and any future triple A gaming titles on it?

Be able to run various IDE for developing/coding stuff like websites, mobile apps, software,s backend services etc?

Yes to all of the above (indeed you can already get ARM server instances on Amazon AWS for example).

With regards to gaming and absolute performance critical work - it will depend what Apple do with ARM chips - the majority of current ARM chips are optimised for low power/mobile use cases.

If you relax power restrictions back to desktop levels, and focus on performance cores (the "Big" in most Big.Little Arm architectures), without integrated GPUs etc, it will be interesting what can be achieved.
 
Soldato
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Lorville - Hurston
Yes to all of the above (indeed you can already get ARM server instances on Amazon AWS for example).

With regards to gaming and absolute performance critical work - it will depend what Apple do with ARM chips - the majority of current ARM chips are optimised for low power/mobile use cases.

If you relax power restrictions back to desktop levels, and focus on performance cores (the "Big" in most Big.Little Arm architectures), without integrated GPUs etc, it will be interesting what can be achieved.

Is the up and coming next gen consoles ARM based?
 
Associate
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Seems so as apple are going all ARM on there next line of laptops and machines.
It makes life easier for them, and ARM is good enough on portable devices
Is ARM good enough to host servers for say this forum?
Yes. In fact not just servers, but supercomputers run on ARM now.
Be able to play the next COD and any future triple A gaming titles on it?
No. Modern games are written with heavy x86 arch optimisations. More so with consoles all being x86. Will require substantial work for game engines and drivers to run anywhere near as fast as x86.
Be able to run various IDE for developing/coding stuff like websites, mobile apps, software,s backend services etc?
Depends on how well software is written. Popular IDEs shoud be fine

X86 is furthest from dying in its history.
ARM won portable, is gaining in servers and now on laptops. But I can't see it becoming faster than a 4-8 core skylake or Zen2 even in a laptop. More power efficient, maybe, depending on load. Not faster
 
Associate
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If you went into a datacenter 20 years ago it was full of SPARC and IBM P Series processors for the real work and some HP x86 stuff for the Windows servers. Running Oracle, for example, in production on x86 back then wouldn't have been an option, fast forward a few years and now the majority runs on x86.

It's possible for architectures to change without a doubt.
 
Soldato
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It makes life easier for them, and ARM is good enough on portable devices
Yes. In fact not just servers, but supercomputers run on ARM now.
No. Modern games are written with heavy x86 arch optimisations. More so with consoles all being x86. Will require substantial work for game engines and drivers to run anywhere near as fast as x86.
Depends on how well software is written. Popular IDEs shoud be fine

X86 is furthest from dying in its history.
ARM won portable, is gaining in servers and now on laptops. But I can't see it becoming faster than a 4-8 core skylake or Zen2 even in a laptop. More power efficient, maybe, depending on load. Not faster


SO would PC gaming die then if no one buys x86 laptops and desktops anymore instead they al go ARM?

wont windows OS x86 be dead other then being used for gaming?

Right now i can use my PC for everything i have listed above but if most of the above runs better and faster on ARM, that leaves a windows x86 only useful for gaming.

WHY wont gaming jump onboard ARM like everyone seems to be?
 
Caporegime
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Seems so as apple are going all ARM on there next line of laptops and machines.

What are your thoughts?

Is ARM good enough to host servers for say this forum?

Be able to play the next COD and any future triple A gaming titles on it?

Be able to run various IDE for developing/coding stuff like websites, mobile apps, software,s backend services etc?

Or is it not viable yet and apple's ARM wont succed?

Intel and AMD have a monopoly on X86_64 and this increasingly doesn't sit well with large company's, the beauty of ARM is they don't make CPU's, they sell IP and with that IP anyone can make their own in house CPU, the problem is unless you're designing your ARM IP CPU's for specific tasks you have to convince an X86_64 world to convert to that IP.

Games are not going to be rewritten for the sake of Apple, tho Apple tend to create their own in house applications so they can make them for ARM, Apple will be moving further away from the applications mass market to an Apple black box of Apple applications, which suits them and even thier customers who think Apple is a special eco system anyway.

ARM are not going to be taking over the X86_64 Space, not for a long time if ever......

x86 died years ago. AMD64 is the future :D

AMD64 is AMD stand alone 64Bit architecture, its used extensively in Linux and servers, the _64 part in X86_64 is the 64Bit part in X86, its AMD64 tagged into Intel's X86, X86 on its own is very much dead, yes, however AMD were clever enough to integrate AMD64 into X86 making it impossible for Intel to revoke AMD's X86 Licence at the time.

Wow, Apple taking a bit of a risk relying entirely on ARM aren't they? China could do to Apple what Trump has done to Huawei.

ARM Holdings is a UK company.
 
Soldato
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Intel and AMD have a monopoly on X86_64 and this increasingly doesn't sit well with large company's, the beauty of ARM is they don't make CPU's, they sell IP and with that IP anyone can make their own in house CPU, the problem is unless you're designing your ARM IP CPU's for specific tasks you have to convince an X86_64 world to convert to that IP.

Games are not going to be rewritten for the sake of Apple, tho Apple tend to create their own in house applications so they can make them for ARM, Apple will be moving further away from the applications mass market to an Apple black box of Apple applications, which suits them and even thier customers who think Apple is a special eco system anyway.

ARM are not going to be taking over the X86_64 Space, not for a long time if ever......



AMD64 is AMD stand alone 64Bit architecture, its used extensively in Linux and servers, the _64 part in X86_64 is the 64Bit part in X86, its AMD64 tagged into Intel's X86, X86 on its own is very much dead, yes, however AMD were clever enough to integrate AMD64 into X86 making it impossible for Intel to revoke AMD's X86 Licence at the time.



ARM Holdings is a UK company.

And why is that?(the bit i highlighted)

Not faster. Cheaper and more efficient and simpler. So in areas where this is important, ARM gains. Desktop and performance laptop is safe.

the ipad cpu's are faster then anthing intel and amd have put out though or am i missing something?
 
Soldato
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The whole point of moving away from Intel,is so they can have one basic underlying OS for ALL their devices,hence saving them money. They can leverage designs for laptops from their tablets. Apple sells far more tablets and smartphones than laptops,and desktops. So think of maintaining a separate OS X ecosystem and hardware design as an additional cost for them. Their margins are dropping,so its all about cutting costs. Using an ARM CPU,they can leverage the same design teams for their phones and tablets,and the same OS,means the same software optimisation and development teams. They can cut out Intel and AMD,and make the same amount on cheaper ARM based hardware.

Apple has a history of driving down costs. They tried to scupper the UK based Imagination Technologies,who supplied most of the IP for their GPUs. They first all of a sudden stopped licensing it,then opened a new development centre nearby in Cambridge and started hiring away their engineers.....all to save a few million USD a year in licensing. All it lead to was a Chinese back consortium buying up the company,Apple obviously not getting as much headway,and then again licensing their IP. All they did is just cause Imagination to become foreign owned,people to be fired,and I doubt they saved much if any money.

They make a ton of money selling smartphone and tablet apps through their appstore. As long as the hardware works fine,the current Apple laptops and desktops will have a longer lifespan than an iPad,ie,just like most laptops. This is bad news for companies such as Apple,as it means less repeat sales,so they are doing everything to go against this.

Better to sell tarted up tablets,as they can lock you into the smartphone/tablet ecosystem which means generally shorter lifespans,ie,for the most part tablets and smartphones are more disposable. That is nothing to do with ARM itself,but just the way companies look at ARM based products to justify products which are not upgradeable or repairable.

Plus Apple has said they want to be seen as a "services company" as they see growth in "services". So what do you think will happen longterm to "OS X" then? It will eventually become an offshoot of iOS/iPad OS. Think of the MacBooks as simply being an iPad with a keyboard eventually and that is the future. They will increasingly push for software to be purchased exclusively through a dedicated app store. They will slowly ease it in,so people don't get annoyed,but it will be what you will see in a few years. If Apple is making billions from their iOS app store,then OFC why wouldn't want their "desktops" and "laptops" to do the same?? They want a cut of all software sales on their platform. They can sell the move as being for "security" and needed for "optimisation" for the new ARM based platform.

If Apple then succeeds in making its "desktop class" OS more and more integrated with its app store,wait until MS tries pushing even more of its own apps,the same way. Enjoy your "open" PCs whilst you still can(or you can run Linux).

Not UK owned anymore though. China is slowly wrestling control for the company. How long before ARM China gains majority control of their IP.

Apple tried to screw over Imagination Technologies,which lead to it being Chinese owned.
 
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Caporegime
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And why is that?(the bit i highlighted)



the ipad cpu's are faster then anthing intel and amd have put out though or am i missing something?

Put those iPads through Hardbreak or Blender or any high stress X86 load, that iPad will take an hour to complete a Cinebench R20 run. ARM are reduced instructions CPU's, they can do very specific workloads very well, workloads that are specifically designed for the ARM CPU, that require developer support, if you add in all the instructions Intel and AMD have they would be no better, probably much worse.

Not UK owned anymore though. China is slowly wrestling control for the company. How long before ARM China gains majority control of their IP.

Didn't know that, Trump is right about one thing, China are not a friendly country and we need to start treating them as such, if we allow them to take over all our technology and industry they will use that against us.
 
Soldato
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West Midlands
They aren't provable faster at anything, as there's no meaningful way of comparing them at present (as ipad apps and desktop apps are completely different)

Bingo. Once Adobe port something like Photoshop or After Effects and you can do a like for like on the iPad/iMac/PC/Intel based Mac you'll be able to see the difference.

Remember when Apple used to try and market the Power PC as being faster than the equivalent x86, using dodgy marketing slides (those people obviously work at Intel now) and the year they dumped Power PC all of a sudden all the stuff x86 was crap at last year it was now amazing at.
 
Caporegime
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Rutland
Bingo. Once Adobe port something like Photoshop or After Effects and you can do a like for like on the iPad/iMac/PC/Intel based Mac you'll be able to see the difference.

Remember when Apple used to try and market the Power PC as being faster than the equivalent x86, using dodgy marketing slides (those people obviously work at Intel now) and the year they dumped Power PC all of a sudden all the stuff x86 was crap at last year it was now amazing at.

Adobe have Lightroom on iPad which is pretty close to tje desktop version in terms of functionality. Photoshop is getting there last time I looked, they had unified all the fragmented mobile versions.
 
Soldato
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Didn't know that, Trump is right about one thing, China are not a friendly country and we need to start treating them as such, if we allow them to take over all our technology and industry they will use that against us.

The only reason China gets a look in as its our own governments and larger companies who do nothing to protect so much of our homegrown stuff. China wants to be self sufficient in technology and a leader. Our companies are more worried about playing the stock market and screwing over fellow companies.Apple on purpose tried to bankrupt Imagination Technologies in Cambridge,tried to hire their engineers away to a new office they opened nearby,and probably wanted to buy all the patents up on the cheap. What happened is a Chinese consortium stepped in and bought Imagination Technologies and MIPs. This is happening everywhere,our lot keep doing this crap,and China swoops in and buys the wreckage.

This is no different than Japan in the 1980s,when there was a big trade war too. It was just that Japan had more foresight to actually put money into R and D,and work together with other Japanese companies,whereas our lot were more worried about margins,and breaking up companies to make a quick buck.

China like Japan,South Korea and Taiwan,consider their big companies strategically important so do everything they can to protect them. They are playing the long game,our lot are playing the stock market price hike game.
 
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