The thread which sometimes talks about RDNA2

[zx128k]

Well it means the RT cores have not really been improved much at all but the performance increase is coming from the huge increase in CUDA cores.

The RT cores are bigger and more powerful. Its the reason why the number has not gone up a great deal from turning. AMD lag behind because they believe that RT should be very limited in games. More or less to lighing and the rest done in the cloud. DLSS was the feature that rocked this ideology. So they produced a card were the RT performance is secondary to rasterization, (AMD games have very little performance hit when RT is enable bucause there is very little of it).

People cry about the quality of DLSS is not the same as native rendering but ignore Variable Rate Shading in DX12u. A feature which allows a GPU to effectively render different parts of the scene at a different resolution, so the GPU can work more on areas that matter and less on areas that don’t.

You can see it here, https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/amd-patents-hybrid-ray-tracing-solution,39761.html AMD Files Patent for Hybrid Ray Tracing Solution

Nvidia went for a full RT solution with dedicated RT cores. DLSS which runs on dedicated hardware called tensor cores. DirectML will run on AMDs compute cores which MS want to use to upscale low resolution textures, so texture sizes remain small. If you listen to the 10GB too small crowd, having low resolution textures which are upscaled in a DLSS like process requires 16GB of vRAM.

AMd needs games to support all its custom amd fidelityfx feature just to get decent erformance on their hardware. Instead of RT Ambient Occlusion, you have Combined Adaptive Compute Ambient Occlusion (CACAO).

First of all, we moved the entire thing over to compute, allowing you the freedom to run it on either a compute or graphics queue. We've also done some major surgery on the data-transformations the effect undertakes. Finally, we also included an upsampler option to allow you to get high quality ambient occlusion within a budget that suits your game.

Enjoy the upsampling, this is a performance hack because using RT to do this costs to much performance on AMD hardware and is not true RT Ambient Occlusion. https://news.developer.nvidia.com/rtx-coffee-break-ray-traced-ambient-occlusion-417-minutes/

Drawbacks

• • SSAO is a less-than-ideal process: it darkens the corners and edges in a scene, and leaves a dark halo around object borders.
  • SSAO also can’t handle occlusion from offscreen geometry (or in-screen geometry, but occluded).
  • Actually tracing rays around the geometry in the scene will be more physically correct than SSAO and gives you higher visual quality.
  • Direct comparison between 2spp [2 sample per-pixel] Denoised and Ground Truth are strikingly close. SSAO is clearly less convincing.
  • 1spp works pretty well for far-field occlusion, but for near field contact, we need to get to at least 2spp.

RT does the Ambient Occlusion effect with far better graphics quality with 2spp. it also can do offscreen geometry. It looks more real and natural.

AMD Stochastic Screen Space Reflections (SSSR) which is a performance hack for RT Reflections because their hardware is slower. The whole purpose is to reduce the number of rays needed and approximate RT reflections. https://www.ea.com/frostbite/news/stochastic-screen-space-reflections

In order to reduce the number of rays needed, we ray-trace at half-resolution, and reuse the rays shot from adjacent pixels in Monte Carlo integration. We can resolve to full resolution using several rays per pixel, but pay a small fraction of the ray-tracing.

This is why all AMD RT games have good performance on AMD hardware. They approx. many of the RT features and use upscaling to get the resolution required. This means image quality is reduced compared to the nvidia RT equivalent. This is why RT performance in Control is poor and performacne in dirt 5 is good. Control has no AMD performance hacks and just normal DXR features.

It's worth noting that this application was filed a year-and-a-half ago; AMD might have developed a new ray tracing system in the interim. But right now it seems like the company doesn't want to go the exact same route as Nvidia, which included dedicated ray tracing cores in Turing-based GPUs, and would rather use a mix of dedicated and non-dedicated hardware to give devs more flexibility. June 28, 2019

This is why the performance of RT is slower on AMD cards and there is no DLSS at the moment. AMD is rushing to develop super resolution with MS but nvidia won and the market wants full RT games and not a hybrid game like godfall etc with very light use of RT. Yet to listen to AMD fans the super resolution feature will be out next week and just as good a native.

MS in all of this wants the full RT feature set. https://www.gsmarena.com/microsoft_...et_the_full_rdna_2_feature_set-news-46450.php

 

[zx128k]

It's crazy how hard AMD have failed at their 2020 GPU launches, when Nvidia, who also failed hard, basically handed them a silver spoon. In my local area RX6800's (non-XT's) are more expensive than some 3080 models and they aren't even in stock. The XT's are even 20% more expensive than some 3080 models.

Nvidia definitely had more stock than this at launch, even though in the following weeks stock sucked. However, AMD had virtually no stock at launch and it remains to be seen how freely stock will flow within the next weeks.

One thing is for sure, anyone who got a 3080 at launch for MSRP or close to that is a happy camper. Anyone who got one of the crazily limited reference 6800's at launch for MSRP is a happy camper. Everyone else is not.

You have to be nuts to give £700+ to stores with no delivery date. I mean seriously, why let a company keep your cash in their account for 1-2 months when stock is going to stabilize next year anyway? Just keep your money and be patient, because consumers are currently being taken for a complete ride and pre-ordering blindly is just helping to fuel this madness.

More or less we are crazy to give stores our money to wait. As we did pay they have to deliver in a reasonable time frame which they wont. If the issue is just down to getting stock of supplier then what can you do. You can't cancel now because the price has gone up, other stores will just add you to the end of their waiting list and covid-19 has to be taken into account. So we wait in line. Also if you want to whine too much about it, then overclockers can give you a refund. Then you can join the back of the queue somewhere else.

All I wish is I gone some more updates about whne stock will become available, not just the numbers overclockers are getting. My possition on the list seems more down the cancellations then deliveries. I have been waiting a long time now and I get that asus are not providing much in the way of updates. AMD dont seem much better off but we will see after custom cards get released.

 

[Richdog]

More or less we are crazy to give stores or money to wait. As we did pay they have to deliver in a reasonable time frame which they wont. If the issue is just down to getting stock of supplier then what can you do. You can't cancel now because the price has gone up, other stores will just add you to the end of their waiting list and covid-19 has to be taken into account. So we wait in line. Also if you want to whine too much about it, then overclockers can give you a refund. Then you can join the back of the queue somewhere else.

All I wish is I gone some more updates about whne stock will become available, not just the numbers overclockers are getting. My possition on the list seems more down the cancellations then deliveries. I have been waiting a long time now and I get that asus are not providing much in the way of updates. AMD dont seem much better off but we will see after custom cards get released.

It's quite simple... you can just cancel the order, exercise some patience and keep your money in your account until stocks stabilize next year. You don't have to wait in any queue or let anyone have your £700 money for 1-2 months, over a Christmas period for goodness sake.

The PC hardware industry currently relies on hype, FOMO and the compulsive behaviour of young people with chunks of disposable cash, not much financial savviness, and no or few other hobbies to spend it on who will throw caution to the wind and blindly chuck money at them without even knowing when they will get what they paid for. It's madness.

 

[Zernath]

It's quite simple... you can just cancel the order, exercise some patience and keep your money in your account until stocks stabilize next year. You don't have to wait in any queue or let anyone have your £700 money for 1-2 months, over a Christmas period for goodness sake.

The PC hardware industry currently relies on hype, FOMO and the compulsive behaviour of young people with chunks of disposable cash, not much financial savviness, and no or few other hobbies to spend it on who will throw caution to the wind and blindly chuck money at them without even knowing when they will get what they paid for. It's madness.

Well said. Imagine running a business where you can take people's money without actually supplying them with a product or service in return! It's laughable when you think about it.

 

[zx128k]

It's quite simple... you can just cancel the order, exercise some patience and keep your money in your account until stocks stabilize next year. You don't have to wait in any queue or let anyone have your £700 money for 1-2 months, over a Christmas period for goodness sake.

The PC hardware industry currently relies on hype, FOMO and the compulsive behaviour of young people with chunks of disposable cash, not much financial savviness, and no or few other hobbies to spend it on who will throw caution to the wind and blindly chuck money at them without even knowing when they will get what they paid for. It's madness.

Its not that simple. Some queues could take 6 months to clear. AMD a the moment look just the same as nvidia. When the custom cards release then we will see if AMD can meet demand.

 

[Richdog]

Its not that simple. Some queues could take 6 months to clear. AMD at the moment look just the same as nvidia. When the custom cards release then we will see if AMD can meet demand.

Your logic in that post is a prime example of what I was writing about.

 

[Grim5]

Its not that simple. Some queues could take 6 months to clear. AMD a the moment look just the same as nvidia. When the custom cards release then we will see if AMD can meet demand.

custom cards are coming in March, Nvidia will announce rtx4000 by then

 

[Shaz12]

custom cards are coming in March, Nvidia will announce rtx4000 by then

Exactly. That’s my problem with waiting. Ampere and RDNA 2 are not going to last 2 years like Turing. It’s going to be a short lived generation so spending £1000 on a 3080 Ti in March when Hopper is less than a year away doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Participant]

Exactly. That’s my problem with waiting. Ampere and RDNA 2 are not going to last 2 years like Turing. It’s going to be a short lived generation so spending £1000 on a 3080 Ti in March when Hopper is less than a year away doesn’t make sense to me.

You reckon you'll be able to buy a Hopper card in less than a year...? Add at least 6 months to whatever the expected release date is.

 

[Richdog]

Exactly. That’s my problem with waiting. Ampere and RDNA 2 are not going to last 2 years like Turing. It’s going to be a short lived generation so spending £1000 on a 3080 Ti in March when Hopper is less than a year away doesn’t make sense to me.

You're waiting until Q1 anyway... the only difference is it's in a queue and, most importantly, someone else has your money. You will very likely be able to get a card next year in Q1 and lets be realistic, Hopper is not coming in any rush and Nvidia likely don't have the capacity to do that even if they wanted to as they are still fulfilling all of the Ampere demand. I would reasonably assume that there is a delay to every new generation roadmap and release now, not to mention supply.

You reckon you'll be able to buy a Hopper card in less than a year...? Add at least 6 months to whatever the expected release date is.

Yup, my thoughts too. There is no guarantee that the next generations launch will be much better.

 

[Grim5]

I'm going the other way with my guess.

The poor RDNA2 and Ampere launches have actually delayed RDNA3 and Hopper.

Why? Because demand has outstripped supply, there is no reason to launch a new product when people are lining up to buy your old one.

Regardless of where engineering is on the next gen cards, the most profitable option for AMD and Nvidia right now is to just ride out this demand wave and hold off for as long as possible before moving on.

So you want a timeline? no RDNA3 or Hopper till mid 2022, I don't care what any road map says, I won't hear a word of it

 

[nvidiamd]

Why would any of them launch better series next year?
The new consoles are just out and they are from the start much slower than any PC graphic card of this generation. PS5 is only a half of Big Navi.
Even the most demanding games of next year will have dumbed down versions to run on PS4 and/or Xbox oneX. Because there are not too many new consoles sold and the old ones are still a bigger market.
Almost no one is playing 4k ultra. A lot of people are playing on 1080p and some on 1440p. A lot of them are satisfied with high settings. Probably the most cards sold next year will be 3060-3060TI and 6700-6700xt. That is enough for someone to play almost every game he wants in the next 3 years.
AMD needs to concentrate on the software and optimization. They can prioritize the chips for consoles, CPU's and so on. Last thing they need is another bottleneck. Maybe they will bring an XTX or 6950 model later next year. But it will be on the same generation.
Nvidia has DLSS already for the most demanding gamers so they will be able to play almost every game on fake 4k Ultra/high on 3080, 3090 and 3080Ti.

There is no need for a new generation until 2022. And both companies will try yo squeeze every profit they can from this generation before they will tell us that it is time to upgrade.

 

[Dontrocktheboat]

I'm going the other way with my guess.

The poor RDNA2 and Ampere launches have actually delayed RDNA3 and Hopper.

Why? Because demand has outstripped supply, there is no reason to launch a new product when people are lining up to buy your old one.

Regardless of where engineering is on the next gen cards, the most profitable option for AMD and Nvidia right now is to just ride out this demand wave and hold off for as long as possible before moving on.

So you want a timeline? no RDNA3 or Hopper till mid 2022, I don't care what any road map says, I won't hear a word of it

agreed, the pandemic has moved the goalpost by at least 6 months.

 

[zx128k]

Your logic in that post is a prime example of what I was writing about.

I am nearly at my 3rd month waiting.

custom cards are coming in March, Nvidia will announce rtx4000 by then

Meanwhile I am stck on the rtx 2060

 

[willhub]

I'm surprised the card doesn't seem to scale very well when the clocks are really racked up? Around a 5% performance bump, on Ampere the small overclocks seem to give around a 3-4% performance bump.

 

[subbytna]

Why is there no stock for the 6800Xts? I mean I know there's a pandemic going but also i've not heard, on tech sites and online, of any problems with yields. Is there maybe a yield issue that's being hidden?

Or is there, here's the cynic in me now, AMD making just a "handful" of reference cards at MSRP to show the cards being sold at that price, then letting AIB's set a price so we think AMD are the good guys for "low actual MSRP" and the AIB's are "greedy" due to higher prices, when the AIB prices are realistically the actual prices AMD have in mind to sell at? Ergo making the cost per frame look amazing for the AMD reference cards and perhaps not so good for the AIB cards?

 

[Besty]

The stock levels are crap but....the red devil wew.

all credit to debauer, give him a like and a hit:
https://youtu.be/UO170MOgukc

@humbug that binned chip doe

pcb money shot:

Timespy 0wnage:

 

[Shaz12]

You're waiting until Q1 anyway... the only difference is it's in a queue and, most importantly, someone else has your money. You will very likely be able to get a card next year in Q1 and lets be realistic, Hopper is not coming in any rush and Nvidia likely don't have the capacity to do that even if they wanted to as they are still fulfilling all of the Ampere demand. I would reasonably assume that there is a delay to every new generation roadmap and release now, not to mention supply.

Yup, my thoughts too. There is no guarantee that the next generations launch will be much better.

AMD is on the verge of stealing NVIDIA’s performance crown if there is something even better than 6900XT down the line. NVIDIA cannot let that happen at any cost and Ampere has been pushed to its limits. The 3080, 3080 Ti and 3090 perform very close to each other and the top end is getting crowded with no meaningful differences. That’s why I expect Hopper to be prioritised and launched Q42020 or Q1 2021.

Neither AMD nor NVIDIA care about stocks so neither will care about capacity. It will be a paper launch but I do not want the life span of my card to be restricted to 1 year.

 

[subbytna]

2700Hz, tha'ts insane for a GPU on air lol

 

[varkanoid]

Instead of actually looking at AMD and seeing the disaster of a launch, you are trying to deflect onto what happened with Ampere which turns out wasn't actually as bad.

I think you are comparing with rose tinted glasses. In a normal year the Nvidia launch was bleepin awful the worst ever IMHO. The only truth is AMD's 6000 series was worse !

Compare people who have ordered a 3080, there money has been taken and still have not got the card weeks after launch to 6000 series cards you cant buy but at least you still have your money.

Then ask the 3080 people are they happy ?